Contradiction between Crowley and Bree's parents

curriguy · Post by **curriguy** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:04 pm

I suppose there is some disagreement between whether Bree believes in Order of the Golden Dawn, Thelema, and a few other religions stemming from Crowley's teachings.

For the purposes of this thread, it doesn't really matter. At the root of all of these relgions is Crowley's belief in "free-will."

"Free will", not to party or what not, but do what you gotta do to reach a type of spiritual-enlightenment...whether that be sex, drugs, or hiking through the mountains.

Knowing that Bree's parents are oh-so religious...they must adhere to this tenet.

Why, then, are Bree's parents SO strict with Bree? She's been given less experiences than the average child...she hardly has any "free-will."

Anyone got any ideas about why they're acting this way?

GimmeYourForever · Post by **GimmeYourForever** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:36 pm

I read something a while ago (on these boards maybe?) but I'm not sure where. It was stating that the "do what thou wilt" isn't so much about doing what you want whenever you want, but more about knowing your goals and always striving to achieve those and working towards them.

So with that latter definition of "do what thou wilt" it may explain why Bree's parents are so strict when their religion preaches to let people do what their will desires. In other words they know her goals( performing in the ceremony, learning... etc) and they want her to work toward those goals instead of going to parties and sneaking out.

curriguy · Post by **curriguy** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:43 am

But that still seems contradictory to me...

Even if she chose the goal to fully immerse herself into the religion, her parents are TELLING her how to do it.

Crowley seems to emphasize an individual path to spiritual enlightenment...

if anything, she's doing it the way her parents want her to do it...which is not in the spirit of the religion.

something doesn't add up.

S is for Summer · Post by **S is for Summer** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:56 am

I agree. But I think a couple things could be happening.

1) her parents, beliefs or no, are just really protective. Most or all of the very religiously devout folks I know are supercautious/protective/very careful about how they guide their children, regardless of their religion's statements about free will etc.. Children seem to be a ballgame with altered rules.

2) the filmmakers just didn't think about it. "Very devout religion! It's occult! Make it even more spooky by making them really strict!"

3) this one is really just based on a passing thought, so. grain of salt. But if we're thinking this is a cult sort of thing, lots of cults espouse all sorts of wonderful things, and then are, in actuality, pretty controlling and stuff.

I haven't thought about this too seriously, so all of these are from the "passing thoughts" box.

rachelalexis · Post by **rachelalexis** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 1:33 am

Cults tend to be very strict about certain things like friendships with non-members (usually restricted, usually told to try to lure them in so they can see the "truth" and thus can continue to be friends with you). That's part of what makes it a cult is that they tend to try to be self-sustaining micro-societies on their own. So maybe this town doesn't have a lot of other people who adhere to the same beliefs, and she was allowed to hang out with Daniel because at least for a while he was entertaining thoughts about the religion (went to camp in the past, was told when he didn't want to film the play at camp that maybe he wouldn't be welcome in the house by her father).
No matter what Crowley taught, he's a good jumping off point for a cult, and cults don't necesarily (I can't spell that right to save my life tonight) play by the rules they're supposed to. In fact they often have two sets of rules, those for the drones and those for the elect. Perhaps their sect believes that you can only be individualistic after you reach a certain level of indoctrination. Or perhaps it's all just to keep her spiritually and physically pure.

Sorry... rants at 2:30am rarely make sense, I hope that kinda did.

Sfonzarelli · Post by **Sfonzarelli** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:07 am

The best theory I've heard so far is that Daniel is part of the order and her parents are just trying to lure her to him by making him forbidden.

Why are straight-laced, conservative, and overly strict parents members of an esoteric religious movement that advocated sex, drugs, and mayhem? For the rame reason the president of San Lorenzo was a Bokononist

Truth-in-Science · Post by **Truth-in-Science** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:26 am

It is clear to me now that LG15's religion is not Thelema, directly.

Crowleyian Thelema, or A.C.'s point of view is that:
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law"

That is the whole point of Thelema, from a fundamental principle.

If Bree (and her parents) subscribes to this religion, then why would there be a breach in the purity bond if everything is of free will?

lordgreystoke422 · Post by **lordgreystoke422** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:49 am

Sfonzarelli wrote:The best theory I've heard so far is that Daniel is part of the order and her parents are just trying to lure her to him by making him forbidden.

Why are straight-laced, conservative, and overly strict parents members of an esoteric religious movement that advocated sex, drugs, and mayhem? For the rame reason the president of San Lorenzo was a Bokononist

I do kinda like your MoonChild theory...maybe this is the order of golden doing evil black majick...and Daniel is from a competing order and trying to save her..Or vice-versa..anyway..the more twisted the twist..the more I like it..
But it does go back to...WHAT the HELL was Daniel in her room with the door closed..**BABOOM**....crap..there goes my friggin brain again....

S is for Summer · Post by **S is for Summer** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 3:02 am

Sfonzarelli wrote:Why are straight-laced, conservative, and overly strict parents members of an esoteric religious movement that advocated sex, drugs, and mayhem? For the rame reason the president of San Lorenzo was a Bokononist

Busy busy busy.

sunflowernik · Post by **sunflowernik** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 3:27 am

There are plenty of "Christians" out there who violate the fundamental laws of love and peace. Lots of people who call themselves Christian are racist and sexist without seeing how oxymoronic that is.

People twist religions to their own beliefs, so I can see how Bree's parents do too.

curriguy · Post by **curriguy** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:25 am

Truth-in-Science wrote:It is clear to me now that LG15's religion is not Thelema, directly.

Crowleyian Thelema, or A.C.'s point of view is that:
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law"

That is the whole point of Thelema, from a fundamental principle.

If Bree (and her parents) subscribes to this religion, then why would there be a breach in the purity bond if everything is of free will?

well the "purity bond" aspect is consistent with Thelema. In preparation for a special ritual/ceremony, the religion sometimes forces stricter rules. You have to make sure you stay very clean, you have to avoid the opposite sex, things like that....so according to that line of thought, Kissing Daniel is definately a breach of the "purity bond." I don't think it disproves anything.

However, the purity bond thing is recent. it doesn't explain the years of strictness that Bree has endured prior.

curriguy · Post by **curriguy** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:34 am

sunflowernik wrote:There are plenty of "Christians" out there who violate the fundamental laws of love and peace. Lots of people who call themselves Christian are racist and sexist without seeing how oxymoronic that is.

People twist religions to their own beliefs, so I can see how Bree's parents do too.

I'll buy that.

and combining it with S is for Summer's Thoughts and Rachelaxis's Thoughts...it makes for a pretty good theory:

Bree's parents aren't STRICT adherants of their religion...and their fear of non-members and over-protective nature has led them to keep Bree on lock-down for 16(ish) years.

It's certainly plausible.

You'd just think that someone who does the Bibliomancy every year would have more faith in Crowley's words....and would give their daughter some freedom to experience life. The dad is a total hypocrite.

Personally, I want Sfonzarelli's Bait-Theory to be true...it would give us the most exciting videos AND would tie up all the looseends

Post by **Broken Kid** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:20 am

Perhaps, too, her parents are aspiring to be more important in the religion. We know there's some sort of hierarchy (because they're not the order of geico or whathaveyou). Her father is important enough to do the bibiomancy in front of everyone. And it's a great honor for Bree to be chosen for the ceremony. So perhaps her parents are striving to get better known and move up, and so they're trying to have the "perfect" family and remain extremely strict as much out of social mores as religious beliefs.

kilgoretroutlovesyou · Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:51 am

Perhaps Bree's parents are coming down so hard on her (with the whole Daniel business, etc.) because their daughter is becoming a bigger player in their religion than they are.

I mean, sure her Dad is a player (a regular reader of bibliomancy, someone who would oversee the filming of a ceremony) but Bree is now preparing for something that they appear, not ot be allow in on. They won't be there. Since Thelemic religions tend to be echalon-ish... Maybe Bree has moved up a peg.

Also, remember the whole Learning to Drive video... Her folks aren't even Order of Dendera.

Bree: a player.

Bree's parents: those over-excited grownups in the little league bleachers, trying desperately to vicariously live through the successes of their offspring.

Or, maybe not.

heybitch · Post by **heybitch** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:24 am

haha.
Nice analogy.
What a philospher you are.

Lonelygirl15

Contradiction between Crowley and Bree's parents

Contradiction between Crowley and Bree's parents

Why Lonelygilr15's religion is not Thelema

Re: Why Lonelygilr15's religion is not Thelema