0110 "My Dad Said..." [1/5/07]

[nakita]

I read the part in bold, and just wanted to point out that the Catholic Church is not one of those cultural groups.
Every Catholic knows about Mary's Immaculate Conception. It is one of two days in the entire year when we are actually recquired to go to Church (it becomes non-optional)

I didn't say it was the Catholic church as a whole. Like BK said, it's mostly in South America...and it's kind of tricky to talk about because the groups I'm refering to..well, their religious beliefs are so ingrained into their culture, it's hard to say if the Mary worship is neccessarily religious or cultural.

BK said they lend her more credence than most Catholics, but they don't worship her... to worship Mary would actually be sacreligious... but we can ask her to pray for us... it's difficult to explain

[spaciegirlreturn]

Yeah, I'm not making up the terminology here....it's commonly referred to as 'Mary worship'. And when you say "us", I assume you're talking about your particular beliefs, which may be the Catholic beiefs, but that's really not who/ what I'm talking about. I'm not making a comment on Catholocism as a whole.

[nakita]

Yeah, I'm not making up the terminology here....it's commonly referred to as 'Mary worship'. And when you say "us", I assume you're talking about your particular beliefs, which may be the Catholic beiefs, but that's really not who/ what I'm talking about. I'm not making a comment on Catholocism as a whole.

I know you're not making up terminology. I just tend to get overly defensive when it comes to this issue... there are people out there who think that Catholics worship Mary, not God, and when I tell them they're mistaken and that I should know because I am a Catholic, some have actually had the nerve to tell me I am wrong.

edit: when I say "us" I am referring to Roman Catholics

[robtomorrow]

http://www.the7thfire.com/new_world_ord ... _abuse.htm

There it is. Really long. But a bit farther down (if you skip the start) are actual accounts and pictures drawn by children. But really it's ... uh, worth the read for the information. And plentiful nightmares.

There is absolutly no connection between Freemasonry and Satanworship or child abuse. That article is very propagandistic and I think it is always important to follow the sourse of the article to see who is saying such things, if you look at the bottom of the article you have.

Followers of Jesus Christ Ministries
POB 4174
Evansville, Indiana 47724-4174

Here is a link to their website.

http://www.followersofjesuschrist.org/

[bethy]

Yeah, I'm not making up the terminology here....it's commonly referred to as 'Mary worship'. And when you say "us", I assume you're talking about your particular beliefs, which may be the Catholic beiefs, but that's really not who/ what I'm talking about. I'm not making a comment on Catholocism as a whole.

I know you're not making up terminology. I just tend to get overly defensive when it comes to this issue... there are people out there who think that Catholics worship Mary, not God, and when I tell them they're mistaken and that I should know because I am a Catholic, some have actually had the nerve to tell me I am wrong.

edit: when I say "us" I am referring to Roman Catholics

I think the problem is that for non-Catholics, they aee an abundance of references to Mary...mention of her name, prayers to her, statues of her everywhere, processions in her honor, etc. Just as a regular Joe, it's easy to be confused. This is especially true when you have someone like the Pope praying to Mary and thanking Mary for saving his life. It really confuses people and gives them the impression that you're worshipping Mary...not Jesus or God himself. I'm not saying it's true or not...I'm just givn the lay person's perception. And believe me, lay people often misintrepret reality.

However, as someone who has studied a lot of religions, I've met some Catholics who said that they probably were worshipping her without realizing it. But the biggest thing that really confuses people is that right in the Catechism, it says that Mary is the co-mediator. That confuses a lot of people because "the Bible says" that Jesus is the only mediator.

However, as a lay person, I won't pretend to understand it. They say they don't worship her, so I take it as they say it. There's no harm in worshipping her I suppose...but a lot of Christians apparently get insulted by the idea. I just want to interject that sometimes it can be really confusing because what see see doesn't alays match what he hear.

Personally?? I think that the ancient Catholics were influenced by paganism more than they want to admit. The reverence toward Mary reminds me a lot of the Godess.

[nakita]

Yeah, I'm not making up the terminology here....it's commonly referred to as 'Mary worship'. And when you say "us", I assume you're talking about your particular beliefs, which may be the Catholic beiefs, but that's really not who/ what I'm talking about. I'm not making a comment on Catholocism as a whole.

I know you're not making up terminology. I just tend to get overly defensive when it comes to this issue... there are people out there who think that Catholics worship Mary, not God, and when I tell them they're mistaken and that I should know because I am a Catholic, some have actually had the nerve to tell me I am wrong.

edit: when I say "us" I am referring to Roman Catholics

I think the problem is that for non-Catholics, they aee an abundance of references to Mary...mention of her name, prayers to her, statues of her everywhere, processions in her honor, etc. Just as a regular Joe, it's easy to be confused. This is especially true when you have someone like the Pope praying to Mary and thanking Mary for saving his life. It really confuses people and gives them the impression that you're worshipping Mary...not Jesus or God himself. I'm not saying it's true or not...I'm just givn the lay person's perception. And believe me, lay people often misintrepret reality.

However, as someone who has studied a lot of religions, I've met some Catholics who said that they probably were worshipping her without realizing it. But the biggest thing that really confuses people is that right in the Catechism, it says that Mary is the co-mediator. That confuses a lot of people because "the Bible says" that Jesus is the only mediator.

However, as a lay person, I won't pretend to understand it. They say they don't worship her, so I take it as they say it. There's no harm in worshipping her I suppose...but a lot of Christians apparently get insulted by the idea. I just want to interject that sometimes it can be really confusing because what see see doesn't alays match what he hear.

Personally?? I think that the ancient Catholics were influenced by paganism more than they want to admit. The reverence toward Mary reminds me a lot of the Godess.

I understand that a lay person's perspective is different, and I'm not going to pretend that I know anything significant about any other religion. I just don't want anyone to get the wrong idea about my religion.

[girlAnachronism]

Nakita, thank you so much for enlightening me about Mary's immaculate conception. I feel rather naive and stupid since this is the first time I've ever heard about it. I don't think anyone was trying to insult or misinterpret your religion, though.


I do think that the possible significance of this information is rather important. What if Bree were conceived in a way that was considered immaculate? [Whether this means IVF, or something else, idk] That would explain her importance to the Order, who are probably hoping to have her go through a ceremony for another immaculate conception so that she can bear them their own personal ... [Christ? I don't really know what you would call it?]

Sorry, I'm probably not making any sense, though I hope someone understands what I was trying to say!

[bethy]

I just don't want anyone to get the wrong idea about my religion.

I totally understand that! I know lots of people who get frustrated that people get the wrong idea about their faiths. That's why when someone of the faith says one thing, I take it as they mean it.

Personally, I don't think you guys do worship Mary...because so many have said they don't. I'm sure there's a certain mindset that comes with knowing th entire faith and practicing it on a regular basis that lends to it that someone else won't understand.

It's like trying to understand binomial theorems when you can barely understand the very basics of algebra. You just can't do it without the proper knowledge.

It's just...to the outsider, it *really* looks like you guys worship her. Again, I don't have an issue with worshipping her per se, but a lot of Christians get upset with that idea.

I used Mormons as an example earlier, but I'll do it again. They believe that Jesus and Satan were brothers. This is an idea that makes a lot of modern Christians furious because it makes it seems as if Christ and Satan are somehow equal. But, without a knowledge of the entire doctrine, they don't realize the reasoning for this, or that the idea isn't a big deal to Mormons, because it's just a general fact. Jesus and Christ are brothers in as spirit children of God...not literal borthers in the flesh.

I don't want to clutter up the explanation, but here's a good overview of that:
http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/resp ... _satan.htm

My point being, what the lay person assumes is often incorrect. That's why when a Catholic says they don't worship Mary, I believe it. I won't pretend to understand all of the prominent use of her name and image isn't worship, but that's not for me say because I don't have a full understanding of the doctrine, and unless one is a faithful practioner, a full understanding can't be achieved.

[spaciegirlreturn]

No one said that. What they did say was that there are officially heretical elements, specifically Maryolatry, that go back to Goddess worship. This topic was brought up because it was assumed by some that Bree, a female, couldn't be the object of the Order's selection/breeding program. The response was that there are elements, even in mainstream religion, that point toward matriarchal succession of kingship.

I can't really put it any better.

[ViolinAddict]

There is absolutly no connection between Freemasonry and Satanworship or child abuse. That article is very propagandistic and I think it is always important to follow the sourse of the article to see who is saying such things, if you look at the bottom of the article you have.

Followers of Jesus Christ Ministries
POB 4174
Evansville, Indiana 47724-4174

Here is a link to their website.

http://www.followersofjesuschrist.org/

No one's saying there's any connection. I found this website a long time ago and dismissed it thinking it had no connection and was, well, utterly disgusting. But we were on the topic so I thought I'd share what I'd read. I don't think Freemasonry has anything to do with Bree. I'm taking no stock in that information in connection with Freemasonry and didn't think anyone else would either.

Other resources have spoken about this; organizations for healing of those abused in rituals and so forth. That website was just the most shocking one I found. If you're looking for reliable sources, they also exist.

Also, remember that not even the creators are specialists in occult religions and rituals. They are going of the same sources, assumptions, and connections that we are. Though we are meant to believe this is a real life situation and "case to solve" it isn't. It has been suspected many times that the creators aren't using an specific religion or case as a reference for their story.

[kristin]

This is my first post on any of the forums here, but I've been watching/reading for a few months and felt like throwing in my thoughts on a few of the latest issues.

On the Jonas-and-Bree-as-siblings hypothesis: I'm hesitant to accept it as inevitable at this point, because the evidence, while compelling, isn't exactly concrete. I do believe that they must have some sort of connection beyond just a chance encounter on YouTube. And I won't be shocked if something does confirm a brother/sister relationship later on. If any of the confirmed members of the Breeniverse are her siblings, I think it is quite possible Jonas is one.

I'm pretty willing to rule Daniel out as a possible brother. His parents, while apathetic, are still accounted for. After all, he is eighteen years old, was employed and a college student -- its not out of the question for them to be stepping back and taking a passive role in his life; he's an adult now. Also, even though I know this isn't definitive proof that he is nonrelated to Bree and his ethnicity/background haven't been mentioned (that I know of) in the videos, I think its worth noting that the real-life actor is half-Jordanian, I believe, whereas Jonas and Bree don't seem to have any familial connections to this region.

A few other things I'm thinking about at the moment, regarding the theory:



Jonas' parents disappeared in a weird way and there's no real proof they're gone, is there? This is probably significant, somehow. If he were just an orphan and this avenue was not to be further explored, then his parents would have died in a car wreck and been positively ID'ed in the morgue, etc., no?
Jonas appears to have money. I don't think he works, and he's got a pretty nice place with apparent rooms to spare. Where did his parents get this money...maybe some kinda payoff from the Order if his sibling (yes, I'm using the Bree-and-Jonas-are sibs-theory here) were bought away? Or maybe even if his parents sold genetic material to conceive a child they never met, playing into the IVF theory.
The gap between their disappearance and the time period in which Bree was born is another bone to pick when the sibling theory is brought up. Perhaps such a payoff had conditions of nondisclosure to it and they were violated, leading the Order to believe they needed to eliminate Jonas' parents, but they assumed that the son wouldn't know anything about it, since he was so young still at the time, and his parents somehow left information about Bree behind for him that Jonas later discovered and connected to the girl he saw on YouTube. Perhaps this is also an unconfirmed suspicious for him, as it is for us.

[onetruegnome]

I read through and hope I didn't miss someone already saying this:

Have we thought of the possibility that she doesn't want to see her mother because she doesn't want to put her in danger too? Like maybe she thinks her mother will also get shot?

Also, I'm trying to make this fit Buffy The Vampire Slayer but there's no Giles!

A while back I posted on the forums how this kinda fit Buffy.

Giles would be us, because we do all the research.

[onetruegnome]

I wonder if they are going to drag the story out by having Bree search for her real parents only to discover that they are really Jonas' parents or something.

I thought a while back that Bree was genetically engineered and maybe her name stands for something like Bioengineered Ribozyme Experiment Entity or something like that.

[Lord Balto]

The gap between their disappearance and the time period in which Bree was born is another bone to pick when the sibling theory is brought up. Perhaps such a payoff had conditions of nondisclosure to it and they were violated, leading the Order to believe they needed to eliminate Jonas' parents, but they assumed that the son wouldn't know anything about it, since he was so young still at the time, and his parents somehow left information about Bree behind for him that Jonas later discovered and connected to the girl he saw on YouTube. Perhaps this is also an unconfirmed suspicious for him, as it is for us.

Hi Kristin, good first post. Your last item, in particular, is interesting. I think we may be ascribing a bit too much omnipotence to the Order. Picking off a sailing vessel east of Hawaii and all. But if what you say is at all near the mark, we have to wonder how Jonas found out what happened to his parents. Did he see them leave the pier? Why wasn't he aboard? They just left him in their big old house while they sailed off to Avalon? Strange. Sounds like some kind of cover story. After all, when everyone here heard it originally they thought it was kind of peculiar and unbelievable.

Perhaps his parents didn't intentionally leave a message but left enough clues around for Jonas to put 2 and 2 together. He seems to be a bright enough fellow.

What really bothers me about these last few episodes, though, is the passive response of everyone involved. These bums just murdered Bree's father! BANG! You're dead! At the very least the police would be looking for his relatives, including Bree. At the most, she'd be front and center at the local police station spilling the beans on the Order and everyone connected with it. Somewhere in between, they'd be launching a little revenge squad and gearing up for action. I mean, this guy didn't die of a heart attack. He was gunned down in broad daylight by a bunch of Enochian mumbling lunatics.

[livelongandprosper77]

Urr umm... okay i think i got the jist of the overall deal i read most of the first parts before i started getting too creeped out to read further. Wow the pictures also man that is messed up stuff. I am starting to think the Order seems nice after reading that....I just hope the Order is not planning to do anything as demonic as what is mentioned there... Horrible stuff, just horrible... If anyone wants to read it for info you have that choice but i am not sure you wanna get some of that info in your head. Might be hard to get it out.

Yeah... tried to warn you. Feel free to blame me for your nightmares

Ah that's okay Violin i don't blame you. I kinda blame my own crazy curiosity but hey i asked to see it and it does help to get a dose of reality once in a while. Even if there was no connection as robtomorrow suggested or you yourself saying you came across it, it helped to reaffirm just how sick some people are in the world and we must keep that in mind. This world is not just a bed of roses and we are sometimes blinded by certain evils. Thankyou for the reality check yo and please keep posting any other ideas you find in the future. If they are like this though i will definitely heed your warning first.