The Order and Free Will

krmurr87 · Post by **krmurr87** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:34 pm

I find it really interesting that in the last video Bree said that Lucy kepy telling her that it was "her choice". I know a lot of people have been saying that the order really wants Bree to do the ceremony on her own free will. Almost as if they can't take the blame for whatever happens to her then (sickos

)

It kind of made me think of the Miss Me? vid when daniel says "About your dad, He actually wanted that to happen" Considering this was actually the order talking, is it possible that they actually do think he wanted to die, or even that he was suppose to die. Maybe he took an oath and promised that if he broke it (maybe helping his daughter escape or by telling her about her real parents) he would ultimitaly die

Onewen · Post by **Onewen** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 4:41 pm

Thinking about her dad...it's possible that the "choice" he had was:

A. Get your daughter to do the ceremony...or...
B. We'll kill you.

Therefore, he "wanted" to die.

Not much of a choice...

PinkoLady · Post by **PinkoLady** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 5:48 pm

Onewen wrote:Thinking about her dad...it's possible that the "choice" he had was:

A. Get your daughter to do the ceremony...or...
B. We'll kill you.

Therefore, he "wanted" to die.

Not much of a choice...

Ha, yeah, that's what I was thinking. "He made a choice... not to do what the eff we wanted him to."

hahacool · Post by **hahacool** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:15 pm

I think that they want people to do things of their own free will and when they don't, they try to guide them in that direction and untimately make them believe what they're doing is of their own free will.

immortal1 · Post by **immortal1** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:22 pm

I know the free will theory has been circulating for a while and now it looks like it's being confirmed.

I just don't get it. I've been wracking my brain trying to figure out why free will could possibly be so important. In fact, I see a major problem. If free will is held in such high esteem with in the Order why wouldn't it be honored for those who wished to exercise it to leave the Order?

PinkoLady · Post by **PinkoLady** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:31 pm

It's such a bizarre definition of free will. Coersion doesn't seem to matter if you ultimately choose to do something-- even if the option was death or death of friend.

As weird as it is that free will is SO important, it's weirder that it's that important while being so loosely defined.

ApotheosisAZ · Post by **ApotheosisAZ** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 6:40 pm

Perhaps those who are in the Order take a vow to surrender their will when they join? I've heard LordGreystoke call the Order "willstealers."

Maybe that's why it's so important that Bree choose to participate. Perhaps The Ceremony is the rite of induction or initiation into the Order?

luzdzus · Post by **luzdzus** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:07 pm

Being a thelem*ish* religion, the Order's definition of free will may be a little odd to most people. In Thelema, will includes a gnostic recognition of the nature of the cosmos and one's place in it, and acting in accordance with this knowledge. By this definition, handing over your wallet because someone is holding a gun to your head would be an act of free will.

hahacool · Post by **hahacool** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 7:13 pm

yes, I agree. I think the order has a much bigger, stranger idea of free will then most of our minds could understand haha. The order works in strange ways and seem to bend the rules to their likings

PinkoLady · Post by **PinkoLady** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:07 pm

luzdzus wrote:Being a thelem*ish* religion, the Order's definition of free will may be a little odd to most people. In Thelema, will includes a gnostic recognition of the nature of the cosmos and one's place in it, and acting in accordance with this knowledge. By this definition, handing over your wallet because someone is holding a gun to your head would be an act of free will.

Very Hobbesian.

OpAphid is Leviathan. =P

luzdzus · Post by **luzdzus** » Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:44 pm

I think Hobbes was an influence in the forming of Thelema, along with a whole bunch of other stuff. There's a lot of Zen type thinking, too. It's actually quite an interesting religion. For instance, it's heavily gnostic. It's OK to explain how to perform the rituals and observances, but the interpretation of them has to be purely individual and personal. The whole LG15 thing seems to be along the same lines. We all get to see the same videos, but everyone has to form their own theories, and what's obvious to one may seem like complete nonsense to someone else.

covedweller · Post by **covedweller** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:24 am

Participation in the Ceremony seems to revolve around free will, the Order as a whole does not.

So far the Order seems to be trying to manipulate the situation to influence Bree's free will.

mellie3204 · Post by **mellie3204** » Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:25 am

Hmmm, all very interesting...

(BTW good job on statring this thread krmurr87, t'was needed!)

I guess the upshot to this ceremony is, it's just something they can't force her to do...what does that mean? We're going esoteric (given the subject matter, that's not unusual!) but let's think in physical basics.

Bree has to do this ceremony by choice... so just taking the whole "do what thou will shalt be the whole of the law" Crowley stuff aside, this suggests to me that she won't just be an inert part of the ceremony or just some physical sacrifice... they need her to do or say something completely off her own bat. I'm thinking it's more say somthing, because you can force a person to move, but not to speak (that and the whole having to learn language elements that we know she was doing as prep).

Then again, look what they did to Daniel.

So...what could it be??

Urgh. I thought I had an idea but I'm just as confused as when I started the post. Nevermind

sodvest · Post by **sodvest** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:46 pm

I know that recently, Bree side something about how she thought that The Order was going easy on them. Like they were following her and telling her what to do, but that they couldn't *make* her do anything.
Has anyone every thought that maybe they *cant*? I mean, maybe Bree is supposed to hold some position in The Order, were *she* actually controls *them*... but Bree doesn't know that because shes been kept in the dark the whole time. Like maybe her parents were the ones to have this special child, who was taken away, and is being guided and primped (for lack of a better word) into being this leader that they think she was at birth? It doesn't seem like they have ever done anything to her *directly*.

longlostposter · Post by **longlostposter** » Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:51 pm

immortal1 wrote:I know the free will theory has been circulating for a while and now it looks like it's being confirmed.

I just don't get it. I've been wracking my brain trying to figure out why free will could possibly be so important. In fact, I see a major problem. If free will is held in such high esteem with in the Order why wouldn't it be honored for those who wished to exercise it to leave the Order?

Crowley said, "Do what thy wilt, will be the whole of the Law", and then, "Love under Will".

I've been looking into Crowley's definition of "Will", and it's not what we would consider a person's "will". Crowley defined will as "divine destiny", so love under will may mean that will is more important than love, and therefore, helping a person reach their "divine destiny" is more important than loving a person, or is the same thing.

www.thelema.org