[Discussion] Semiotics Contents: Note/Numbers

RubyRed11 · Post by **RubyRed11** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 4:27 pm

janesalteredstates wrote:
The Theta is similar to an Egyptian symbol that represents the Sun, and the Mu was derived from the Egyptian hieroglyphic symbol for water. So the Sun equals Ra...and the water equals Naunet? Or maybe Poseidon? When combined this "watcher" symbol establishes that the Order rules and watches over all that exists in between.

Theta is the 8th letter, Mu is the 12th. So that's one more 12, but the 8 = ?.

Theta was also used as an abbreviation for "Thanatos," and considered a warning of death.
I don't understand what she means by "that's one more 12." an someone explain that to me or point me to an explanation?

ah i wish i knew but im just as lost

PinkoLady · Post by **PinkoLady** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:04 pm

janesalteredstates wrote:
The Theta is similar to an Egyptian symbol that represents the Sun, and the Mu was derived from the Egyptian hieroglyphic symbol for water. So the Sun equals Ra...and the water equals Naunet? Or maybe Poseidon? When combined this "watcher" symbol establishes that the Order rules and watches over all that exists in between.

Theta is the 8th letter, Mu is the 12th. So that's one more 12, but the 8 = ?.

Theta was also used as an abbreviation for "Thanatos," and considered a warning of death.
I don't understand what she means by "that's one more 12." an someone explain that to me or point me to an explanation?

Ha, that's something we're all trying to figure out.

Lurker noticed Gemma said the family disappeared when she was 8, which, as she's 19, would have been a little more than 11 years ago-- possibly meaning that Bree's time is coming up, and that posisbly the ceremony is done every 12 years, or something to that effect.

Someone also pointed out Tachy's 112 bowling score, which could have some significance, since she brought it up again in The Human Ransom.

There might be other theories, but those are the only ones I really remember.

Nieriel.Manwathiel · Post by **Nieriel.Manwathiel** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:08 pm

"what does this mean?"
"what does that mean?"
"why this number??"
"skulls??"
"CHEESECAKE!"

......what if we're just a helluvalot smarter than the Creators and solved what was to be solved faster than intended? we're given 5 books out of a 70-year-old series, and then we're supposed to try a random password out of the millions of words from both the series and the books...

and we still crack it in about 2 days or so.

what if there's nothing else yet? not just beating a dead horse with the images, but with the text, too?

i'd say it's reasonable that, for now, we know where the symbol is derived from and its rough interpretation.

Ruberic · Post by **Ruberic** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:11 pm

In many ancient religions (including judaica) numbers have specific significance. 7 is often used to refer to as perfection, 6 as one less than perfection. 3 is considered complete or holy perfection (thus 777 would be perfectly perfect, 666 is perfectly imperfect...etc).

It seems to me that the order refers to things in terms of ancient religion. If we do enough investigation, we should easily be able to figure out significance to the number 8 and 12.

In my theological studies....I do recall the number 12 as a reference. However, it has been a long time since I have delved into numerological studies of ancient religions.

May be time to dust off my old texts.

ALSO...remember the term semiotics refers to the use of sybols as pertaining meaning. Each symbol that is used, when combined differently, have different meanings. Ancient egyptian texts (heirogliphs) use images in specific orders or combinations to indicate different things. It depends on its order, position, and combination.

If you understand what each seperate symbol means (not just the name, but the meaning of the name and its pertanant usage) you can truly determine what they indicate by their position in the new symbol.

That is, it was possible to create new words for things that did not exist by combining existing symbols in new ways. If you knew the original use, you could easily determine the use in the new term.

Time for me to dust off my references on ancient texts as well.

Too the library!

-Ruberic

diastres · Post by **diastres** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:27 pm

tigerlilylynn wrote:Word pie. Splitting the image posts off of this was hard enough, getting value out of it???

All I can think to add is *dons 6th sense voice* I see blurry things

Hehe, that's about where I was, too. No worries. Thank you thank you thank you for splitting them. I <3 Tiger.

PinkoLady: Added those symbol identifications.

Another thing I'm wondering: Does Tachyon know the answer to what she's asking in reference to the 8, or is she asking Bree without knowing the answer? I'm leaning towards the first, but still...

tiltingwindward · Post by **tiltingwindward** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:53 pm

I can add a little bit about the numbers. 12 is what is known as a "magic" number, that is, a number which historically has great significance in many cultures. Ruberic touched on this a bit, so I'm just going to follow up from there. Along with 3, 7, and 9, 12 is a number that appears frequently in religion, mysticism, and folklore (three wishes, seven dwarves, nine crows, twelve dancing princesses, etc.), and it frequently appears in connection with an important plot element, such as the number of adversaries, or as a feature of a test the hero must pass in order to continue.

8, on the other hand, is not a magic number. To my knowledge, it has little to no mystical/religious/folk significance at all, which makes it very intriguing. Obviously, Tachyon finds it intriguing as well. Rereading the hexed note (Semantikos--and this word should tell us something as well), I'm inclined to believe that Tachyon isn't entirely sure about why 8 is showing up. She seems to be pretty confident that she's found a pattern with 12 (and I think we're right on her tracks on this one), but the 8 seems to be puzzling her as well as us.

McPackage · Post by **McPackage** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:02 pm

tiltingwindward wrote:8, on the other hand, is not a magic number. To my knowledge, it has little to no mystical/religious/folk significance at all, which makes it very intriguing.

In Chinese culture, 8 is a lucky number. It represents wealth. On ebay, I remember seeing dollar bills with lots of 8s in the serial number that were selling for a lot more than a dollar.

klgglk · Post by **klgglk** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:06 pm

the ceremony was originally scheduled for the 12th, that seems like the first 12.

also, maybe not so important, but Bree's family moved to England when she was 12.

McPackage · Post by **McPackage** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:10 pm

By the way, wikipedia has lots of info regarding the significance of specific numbers:

8: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8_%28number%29
11: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11_%28number%29
12: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_%28number%29
15: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_%28number%29
16: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16_%28number%29
18: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/18_%28number%29
19: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/19_%28number%29

KrystalRayne · Post by **KrystalRayne** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:11 pm

klgglk wrote:the ceremony was originally scheduled for the 12th, that seems like the first 12.

also, maybe not so important, but Bree's family moved to England when she was 12.

Good catches!

McPackage · Post by **McPackage** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:20 pm

Also, 8 turned 90 degrees is, of course, the symbol for infinity, which we saw on the boxes in Daniel's "Breaking And Entering" video:

PixieSailor · Post by **PixieSailor** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:35 pm

McPackage wrote:Also, 8 turned 90 degrees is, of course, the symbol for infinity, which we saw on the boxes in Daniel's "Breaking And Entering" video:

Good catch!
I think that's something to look into. :3

I'm reading the wiki, and this bit seemed intriguing.
"A fallen or lying down 8 is used to represent infinity in mathematics. This interpretation of 8 may be related to the representation of the caduceus (where two snakes form several figure eights) as stability or balance of opposing forces."

Stability or balance of opposing forces? Snakes? *looks into*

klgglk · Post by **klgglk** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:37 pm

KrystalRayne wrote:
klgglk wrote:the ceremony was originally scheduled for the 12th, that seems like the first 12.

also, maybe not so important, but Bree's family moved to England when she was 12.
Good catches!

thanks!

also something on 8, maybe a stretch, but:

The 8th was the day Crowley shifted from translating heiroglyphics to writing the Book of the Law, the central sacred text of Thelema:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Book_of_the_Law

It says that for about two weeks in 1904, Crowley had the hieroglyphs on the Stele of Revealing translated. This was an Egyptian artifact on which are the three main deities of Thelema: Nuit, Hadit, and Ra. Finally he was given instructions, and on April 8 he began writing the central text of Thelema.

But then again, as people have pointed out, 8 can mean a lot of things...

tiltingwindward · Post by **tiltingwindward** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:46 pm

McPackage wrote:Also, 8 turned 90 degrees is, of course, the symbol for infinity, which we saw on the boxes in Daniel's "Breaking And Entering" video:

Hmm...this is the best connection to the number 8 that I've seen yet. Thanks for pointing this out!

iamcool · Post by **iamcool** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:49 pm

tiltingwindward wrote:
McPackage wrote:Also, 8 turned 90 degrees is, of course, the symbol for infinity, which we saw on the boxes in Daniel's "Breaking And Entering" video:

Hmm...this is the best connection to the number 8 that I've seen yet. Thanks for pointing this out!

omg i totally said that like 3 pages back and do i get credit?