[Discussion] Semiotics Contents: Note/Numbers

[yarvin]

This is all getting to be very theological, to a point almost beyond understanding. I'm a bit lost why we're talking about Jung now, and, yes, I have read every page. It still baffles me. Would anyone mind sharing what is going on?

I brought Jung up because his school of psychology allows you connect otherwise disparate occult themes together, and because I suspect he's more widely read than most of the occult writers themselves.

In particular, if the Order really is an amalgam of occult and Christian ideas, the Archtypes may have served as touchstones to help synthesize them coherently.

In this particular case, Jung's ideas seem to echo a general consensus of various religious/occult sources without being specific. I noticed that the number 8 has a connotation of perfection/wholeness in Buddhism. While Buddhism doesn't seem to be directly connected to the plot, Crowley was a Buddhist before founding Thelema. Thamus pointed out that this connotation of 8==wholeness was also widely shared in Western occult traditions.

8 is also significant in Jungian thought for exactly the same reason, in no small part because it's two times 4, which Jung was obsessed with as a symbol of wholeness. In Jung's writings, there are four cognitive functions (Thinking, Feeling, Sensing, Intuiting), four stages of development (Shadow, Anima/Animus, Wise Old Man/Earth Mother, and Self), etc.

In addition, Tachyon points out that Theta, the 8th letter, is connected with the Sun, which is another symbol of wholeness in Jungian thought.

What perfection/wholeness has to do with the Order is unclear. And, of course, I/we could be wrong about it, but with Thamus' post, there seems to be a good bit of evidence pointing in that direction.

[McPackage]

JHorrorFan, as you have noticed, this was mentioned in the first post...

Close. The first post still says that there's a gimel, when I think the jury is still out whether it's a gimel or a lambda.

[klgglk]

JHorrorFan, as you have noticed, this was mentioned in the first post...

Close. The first post still says that there's a gimel, when I think the jury is still out whether it's a gimel or a lambda.

I questioned the gimel thing too a few pages back.... check out the symmetry: lambda is symmetrical; gimel not so much (google image "phoenician gimel" for several examples of the latter, all with the left leg shorter).

this symbol is symmetrical. seems more likely a lambda for those and the other reasons posted.

[Opladybug]

Jung? are we talking about Jung? I love Jung!
11 pages... I can read that.

[lilacangel]

53454d414e54494b4f53
Hex for: SEMANTIKOS
Note: Semantikos is semantics, not semiotics.

However the entire .rar file was named semiotics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiotics

Which have an interesting correlation because:
Semiotics is "is the study of signs and symbols, both individually and grouped in sign systems. It includes the study of how meaning is constructed and understood"

and Semantics is the study of how words and their use relate to what is meant by the speaker and understood by the listener (gotta love linguistics)

[diastres]

Yeah, the .rar file was semiotics... but not that file within the .rar.

I put that note there because someone brought up that people might mix up the .rar name and that specific file name.

[tannhaus]

I brought Jung up because his school of psychology allows you connect otherwise disparate occult themes together, and because I suspect he's more widely read than most of the occult writers themselves.

I actually did a video earlier about Jung and Crowley/Thelema/Magick

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tUOX3huT2E

[Magesa]

I finally got through this post!!! Yay!!!

I'm afriad I don't have any spetacular research to add to the wealth of information already gathered. This reminds me of before the "ceremony" (the fake one) when everyone was trying to figure out what religion Bree was, I remember there was just tons and tons of information and not much to do with it.

We have a lot of great information about 8 and 12, which is fantastic. I particurally like the "12 years between each ceremony" idea. However, we'll go much farther once we know what to DO with it.

I think we may have to wait for an application. We're fast on these forums, maybe even faster than the Creators! (as someone pointed out, I don't remember who).

There is another thread discussing an application of four branches of the Order, which I quite like and is getting a little farther than this thread, provided that it's original assumption is correct.

I don't have the time to do this now, but it would be helpful to gather all (or some) of the research have, even if just on the numbers, and organize it somehow. My brain is overflowing!

I'm sorry if this post is just a long ramble of what other people have said. Sigh, at least with the last couple of videos, we have a goal. But who knows -- our musings might pay off. After all, all of our progress starts with random ideas and tidbits of research. Although we may go a bit overboard sometimes.

[Magesa]

Okay, I have a few (somewhat) sensible things to say, then you can continue your excellent research:

A lot of the research on this thread is theological. It seems that a lot of this is alluding to what religious symbolism the Order employs. What kinds of religious motivations drive the Order? We know that they are very connected to the ancient Egyptians and Aleistar Crowley. So you guys are digging up information from those sources about everything ever mentioned in an lg15 video. If we could somehow find common themes, then we might amass the critical information of what religious motivations drive the Order (which could help us figure out why they want Bree to do this ceremony, what the ceremony is, etc.) However, that's probably way more than we can chew. (We have seen sun, death, etc. a lot though...)

Maybe we just research and wait for an application.

If you haven't already, go check the thread: "[DISCUSSION]: A new theory on the symbols" It says that the symbols represent branchs of the Order, or possibly of OpAPHID. It's a pretty logical application.

Okay, so I'm still just rambling. Sorry.

[JHorrorFan]

Well, I return from my flurry of numerology work to bring you...lots of numbers.
I ran into a snag when I discovered that not only are there three Greek numbers/letters that are archaic and have fallen out of usage, the Greeks also did numerology differently than we did. Instead of each letter corresponding to a number (e.g. Iota=9, Kappa=10, Lambda=11), they would jump into counting by tens after Iota (e.g. Iota=9, Kappa=10, Lambda=20). This wouldn't be such an issue if 11 weren't a 'Golden Number' in most numerology, and thus cannot be broken down (otherwise, 11 gets broken down into 1+1=2, which is the same as 20 (2+0=2). However, taking into account that it was agreed that Mu=12 (BTW, how do we know this? Did Tachyon tell us this?), then I assume that we're using the new Greek alphabet and the K=10 L=11 M=12 system.
And thus, I began numerologying (a real word? I suspect not...).
I tried the two most popular methods of numerology and here's what I came up with:

METHOD 1:
Theta & Mu=8 & 12=2
Pi & Theta=16 & 8=6
Tau & Omicron=19 & 15=7
Lambda & Sigma=11 & 18=11

METHOD 2:
Theta & Mu=8 & 12=11
Pi & Theta=16 & 8=6
Tau & Omicron=19 & 15=7
Lambda & Sigma=11 & 18=2

So despite the fact that 11 and 2 are switched, identical answers. Which is pretty cool, considering that having a 'Golden Number' (now to be called a GM) should have skewed it a bit.
So, what happens if we continue numerologying the results?
Again, both methods produced identical results and...(drumroll please) we get...8!
Nifty, huh?
Does it mean anything? I haven't a clue...

[Thamus]

Early Mediterranean alphabets (like the Phoenician, Hebrew, and Greek) used letters to indicate numbers. The numerical meaning of a letter was not its place in line, but its intrinsic value. The western magical tradition, of which the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn and Crowley were part, used these ancient numerical values in their magical operations. Thus Eta = 8, Theta = 9, Mu = 40. Iota Beta = 10+2 = 12.
In practice the orders used the Hebrew alphabet (Heh = 8, Teth = 9, Mem = 40, Jod = 10, Berh = 2)
All these words in numbers allowed navigation upon Tree of Life of the Qaballah which was the map of the universe to the magical orders.



Oh yes, back to the number eight; The experience upon the eighth sephirah is The Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel.

[yarvin]

Well, I return from my flurry of numerology work to bring you...lots of numbers.

Awesome. One thing, though: there seems to be another system of adding up Greek letters: isopsephy. In Thelema, this is significant because the Greek words for Will (Thelema) and Love (Agape) both add up to 93. See Thelemapedia's article Since we know Crowley's significant, I think it's worth looking at, though I don't know if we'll find anything:

Theta + Mu: 9 + 40 = 49
Pi + Theta: 80 + 9 = 89
Tau + Omicron: 300 + 70 = 370
Lambda + Sigma: 30 + 200 = 230
Total: 738

OK, I think that that just confuses things. Although, 738 is a multiple of 9. 9x82, in fact, if that means anything.

If Theta = 9 = Death = Sun, then maybe 82 is the angle at which Bree/Daniel/Jonas will be tossed to their deaths into the Sun!

[tannhaus]

The thing I don't understand about this was the comment about the Sun and the water...and how perhaps it meant the Order rules and watches over everything in between. Now, they are speaking about the Egyptian. However, the Egyptians believed the sky was water also. They believed the Gods sailed across the heavens in a boat...and that's why the sun moved. So, there would be no "in between" the Sun and the water...unless you mean the boat carrying Ra.

It just seems to me they jumbled together all these references to cultures without establishing a meaning in any of them.

[yarvin]

It just seems to me they jumbled together all these references to cultures without establishing a meaning in any of them.

That would be a nightmare and a major mistake on the part of the Creators. If the references are simply arbitrary, no amount of sleuthing on our part is going to make any headway.

Might we at this point begin to speculate that Tachyon was wrong about either the meaning of the Watcher symbol or the other Theta-based symbol?

It might help if Bree would open up a little about her former religion.

[tannhaus]

Might we at this point begin to speculate that Tachyon was wrong about either the meaning of the Watcher symbol or the other Theta-based symbol?

I think we have to assume that Tachyon was guessing as well. It doesn't make sense that Tachyon wouldn't know the meanings behind the symbols though.