[DISCUSSION] Glenn Rubenstein as a Director/Writer/Editor

[Danielle]

Many times when his fans say how great he is they make these sweeping generalizations like "great storytelling" or "amazing editing" without never saying why they think it's so great or amazing. I can appreciate that you like the way he writes dialogue. I wish more people would be specific so I can understand what exactly it is they are talking about.

I'll expand how I feel.

"amazing editing"
Did you see the Human Ransom, its more than just cuts and occasionally speeding things up to music. The audio for his videos are very skillfully chosen, edited or created. My favourite puzzle so far was probally the one with the audio mashup, it was very clever and well executed. You can tell that the editor is a perfectionist, and has an overall vision of what the product will include. There is always a good colour scheme used with filters and whatnot that creates a great mood. Even going back to his older stuff, when he was precanon there is a amazingly crisp quality to everything.

"great storytelling"
To be honest with you, I was kinda pissed when the game went canon. I know I'd have stopped watching lg15 ages ago if it wasn't for his characters and plot. I prefer the darker twists that OpAphid brought, and thats what always attracted me to that side. Many of the followers have been seduced into one side or another, and the fan interaction board is much more fun to play around in because of this. The way the drops were established also were well constructed for TiNaG, I was very caught up in the moment with all those drops.

and I'm going to add my own here, just because this one is my favourite;

"sweet direction skillz"
Okay. So once upon a time I could probally be caught quoted bashing Jackson on his acting skills. I'm not knocking the intergration of an attractive male into the series, but I really doubted his acting ability. The acting part of the show is why I was initially interested in LG15 at the beginning (before I got all ARG on ya'll), it was a neat concept. I like to pretend I can act by doing musical theatre and such, but the subtlety it takes to pull off this style of show is comendable. Well anyway, I thought Jackson was a boring actor (no offense darling, people change!) until the video 'Interrogation 101'. He gave me chills during this, and I found myself actually getting very upset at the entire situation (when usually I can be found chuckling and being just kinda amused at lg15 vids), Jackson really made me empathize. Which is weird, because... I usually suck at that game. I'm the only girl on the planet that didn't cry during the notebook. I'm a monster, I know.

Anyway, look at the direction credits for that video. Glenn. Take it from me (or anyone that likes to dabble in acting), it sucks to act without good direction. Thats why preformances often come off as lukewarm, or mixed; because the motivation wasn't made obvious enough. Jackson nailed the crap out of that entire scene. He pretty much killed it. The tone, quality, and expression from him was awesome. I think that both Jackson and Glenn worked really good on that entire project (you too Yousef).



EDIT ADDED BECAUSE IT DIDN'T LOOK PRETTY THE FIRST TIME

[curiousGeorge]

Thankyou LL, those were the stats I referenced in the original thread before it spun out of control....

Back OT: I do refute the fact that Glenn has been all that great of a contributor to the show. "My Lazy Eye" is the most watched vid because it was a beautiful metaphor for teenage isolation and a girls' relationship with her parents. Wonderfully scripted, acted, and edited. The highlight of the series to date.

Now we have a plot that is just absurd and a story just doesn't make any kind of rational sense. I think Glenn and his ridiculous writing RUINED the show.

Yes, this is just my opinion but the YT numbers do back this up also.

[immortal1]

"amazing editing"

I would say this is his stongest skill. I don't think you'd find many people to argue that.

"great storytelling"

I'm going to have to disagree. His background is in video games and this story plays like a story you would find in a video game. It's an immersive interactive story, yes, and that serves the ARG and brings a great element to the overall story but on it's own is not "great storytelling." An example, Tachyon, she's an off screen character whose character development has all taken place through messaging correspondence. It's no wonder the casual viewer has no clue who she is or what she's about. I have problems with his lg15 vidplays as well. I think Tach/OP would make a great video game but a lousy screenplay. Having said that the way he merged the two is pretty amazing. I don't know what to call that but it's not storytelling. Maybe storygaming.

"sweet direction skillz"

I don't think you can credit GR with JJ's performance in this case. In fact, I disagree with you on JJ as an actor. If you look at his videos he's consistently the one who gets through all his dialogue with the least cuts and edits.

[Lurker]

I'm going to have to disagree. His background is in video games and this story plays like a story you would find in a video game.

Like Languorous Lass, sweeping generalizations are a pet peeve of mine, and that applies to stuff like this as well as categories of people.

In video games you can find stories and storytelling styles as varied as any you'll find in film and television - and I'd say you'll actually find more since video games can utilize a more direct correlation between input and output with audience interaction.

[VanillaFlava]

In video games you can find stories and storytelling styles as varied as any you'll find in film and television - and I'd say you'll actually find more since video games can utilize a more direct correlation between input and output with audience interaction.

Intersting point, which I am very torn about personally. Yes, you can find as good storytelling, maybe even better storytelling in games than in some big-time movie productions. What usually drives the emotional impact of video game stories is the interaction. You feel immersed, and connected to the characters, because in the end you helpd shape the story, or in most cases at least led to its unfolding before you.

I have been in discussions about interaction and storytelling probably since 1995, when the game Riven (you know sequel to Myst) came out. This is probably, at least in my mind, the pinnacle of video game storytelling, as the universe that has been created for it is just so meticulously put together. There have been also a great many books about immersion, storytelling and games, one notable example being, 'Hamlet on the Holodeck' by Janet Murray. This book is from 97 by the way, and foreshadows many things we are talking about today. This should put into perspective, when some people rave that this is all so new and cutting edge.

Now, one problem with interactive storytelling is that it does not work WITHOUT interaction. Which ultimately, frustrated Robyn Miller, for example, one of the two brothers behind the Myst series so much, that he left the company wanting to produce linear storytelling again.

I think, the problem with Glenn's material is also precisely that. I just re-watched the last 20 or so episodes of LG15, thinking that maybe I have been treating this all too harshly, and one thing stood out to me. There are HUGE gaps in the storytelling, where things happen that are not shown, or are even only briefly mentioned. A lot of these the viewer will only know if he participated in the ARG, or at least actively read the forums. No wonder the numbers are lower, because on their own, just watching the source material, the story seems like a jumping record. It is often confusing and things are presented in exposition, which is the death blow to immersion.

EDIT: To give an example, right after Human Ransom, Bree basically gives the low-down on Tachyon and Brother, and it is summarised in just a few sentences. If these characters are suddenly so important to the fate of our protagonists, surely they deserve more than a few disapassionate lines of exposition to bring the non-ARG people up to speed? It does not work, and just leaves the casual audience going 'Whah?!'

I think ultimately, two conflicting ambitions or maybe points of view are colliding here. That of linear storytelling, just watching episode after episode, and that of the interactive experience. I can see now, why some people simply love this recent material so much, while it just makes me cringe in places. They love it because they have been immersed in it through the discussions and game elements which fill the holes between episodes. I find them boring, because I never bothered to engage in those interactive segments, and on their own they barely hold up.

That's not necessarily Glenn's fault at all, because his material really does have nice prodiction values, especially Human Ransom. It might also be quite a clever story, I know very little about it. It does seem to be a totally different kind of story than what has been told previously. Tachyon the Meme-Terrorist vs. The Love Triangle on the run. It totally jars with the surrounding material. No reason is given why these videos have all this slick editing and digital manipulation, other than it's an OpAPhid or a Tachyon piece. It simply does not mesh well (no pun). They should maybe be presented as messages from somebody else, sperated from the main stream, or marked or framed in some other way.

I do find this thread interesting in that regard:

Who Sees What?
http://www.lonelygirl15.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6843

It seems that the C's also wrestle with exactly this question. If everybody is an omniscient actor, no real character development can take place. While the viewer should be for the most part omniscient, if all the characters are too, it whittles away any kind of basis for dramatic storytelling. I do take side with the C's on this one though, i.e. that not all material should be known to everyone. I just think the extra suspension of disbelief will be somewhat cumbersome, especially if all clips are just added to a continous stream.

Maybe, this story should be told in some kind of hypertext, with a main linear story flowing through it, and branching, optional arms connecting at various points. It would need some serious re-working on how the material is presented, however. And sure, this wouldn't work at all on YT. It needs a dedicated presentation. Then again, is this not what they have kinda been promising all this time? Maybe it's time to implement it.

[tigerlilylynn]

Thankyou LL, those were the stats I referenced in the original thread before it spun out of control....

Back OT: I do refute the fact that Glenn has been all that great of a contributor to the show. "My Lazy Eye" is the most watched vid because it was a beautiful metaphor for teenage isolation and a girls' relationship with her parents. Wonderfully scripted, acted, and edited. The highlight of the series to date.

Now we have a plot that is just absurd and a story just doesn't make any kind of rational sense. I think Glenn and his ridiculous writing RUINED the show.

Yes, this is just my opinion but the YT numbers do back this up also.

Also, when Parallax began a lot of us went back to rewatch since it was a potential connection to the new arc's name. It was also foreshadow and hint heavy at the time with regards to the ceremony drama.

[immortal1]

In video games you can find stories and storytelling styles as varied as any you'll find in film and television - and I'd say you'll actually find more since video games can utilize a more direct correlation between input and output with audience interaction.

VanillaFlava basically explained what I was trying to say.

... I just re-watched the last 20 or so episodes of LG15, thinking that maybe I have been treating this all too harshly, and one thing stood out to me. There are HUGE gaps in the storytelling, where things happen that are not shown, or are even only briefly mentioned. A lot of these the viewer will only know if he participated in the ARG, or at least actively read the forums....
I think ultimately, two conflicting ambitions or maybe points of view are colliding here. That of linear storytelling, just watching episode after episode, and that of the interactive experience. I can see now, why some people simply love this recent material so much, while it just makes me cringe in places....

Which is why I tried to make a distinction between the more traditional linear storytelling and what I call for lack of a better term, storygaming. When you try and do both, good storygaming can result in bad linear storytelling. I mean they have two different goals don't they? In scenes told by linear storytelling your primary objective is to reveal something about a character, provide exposition or further the plot. In storygaming scenes would appear to be built around things like the revealation of a clue or getting to a line of dialogue that provides a game hint.

I feel the immersive type viewing experience that GR excelled at is worth the Creators pursuing, but maybe in another project. I think there needs to be a clear separation at lg15 for the simple reason that IMO for a project like that to be successful you have to present it as that from the get go. Here it should be supplemental content. I think maybe they were hoping to find a balance between linear storytelling and storygaming but I don't think that's possible.

[Lurker]

Okay, immortal, I say what you're saying. Sorry for the confusion.

I do agree that the style of LG15 (both in story presentation and in story content) hasn't really lent itself that well to the ARG stuff - which is not to say that I think LG15 would have fared better without the ARG up to now (the storyline the ARG brought in contributed a lot), but from here on I think it could do fine without it.

There's so many potential problems with trying to integrate an ARG into something like what LG15 is at this point - and those problems could only become worse if the ARG becomes a central aspect of the whole thing.

[milowent]

I think I am going to have to disagree with some of what immortal1 and vanillaflava have said about glenn's storywriting abililites.

I'm not a fan of ARGS, I'm not even a big fan of human ransom, but there are SOME glenn-derived vids which are actually good storytelling videos. maybe glenn has been stretchted to thin, and should actually be doing lg15 stuff all the time.

since i'm not a glenn-groupie, i didn't think i would be writing this, to be honest, but i think it needs to be said.

http://milowent.blogspot.com/2007/03/ra ... eator.html

and to avoid reraising a ruckus here at the forum, feel free to post your comments to my blogpost in the comments to the blog. let's give apo and all the mods here a rest, i don't mean to stir the pot.

[immortal1]

I think I am going to have to disagree with some of what immortal1 and vanillaflava have said about glenn's storywriting abililites.

I'm not a fan of ARGS, I'm not even a big fan of human ransom, but there are SOME glenn-derived vids which are actually good storytelling videos. maybe glenn has been stretchted to thin, and should actually be doing lg15 stuff all the time.

since i'm not a glenn-groupie, i didn't think i would be writing this, to be honest, but i think it needs to be said.

http://milowent.blogspot.com/2007/03/ra ... eator.html

and to avoid reraising a ruckus here at the forum, feel free to post your comments to my blogpost in the comments to the blog. let's give apo and all the mods here a rest, i don't mean to stir the pot.

I don't have any major problems with the two videos you cited in your blog. Bree Phone Home is actually a good example of how to subtley drop a game clue and Drinking Problems has no game elements at all. For the Ladies is one of my favorite vids BTW. I still think that storygaming and storytelling are 2 different things and mixing them doesn't always bring good results. And some of the issues I have maybe I can't attribute to any one person. For example: we weren't told how Bree told up Jonas. But leaving it out to me leaves a question. Perhaps it was a joint decision but I tend to attribute those things to the person credited with the writing. Maybe he fell asleep in a chair, who knows? If it was that simple why not just say so? And the character's motivations were off during those vids. Bree and Jonas are getting along>Daniel gets mad at Jonas>That conflict is explained away with one line of dialogue "we had a brodown">Bree gets mad at Jonas and ties him up(This is where GR's vids start)>Daniel is now sympathetic and loosens his bonds. The motivation was set up one way and then completely abandoned. Would this have not have been more logical? Bree and Jonas are getting along>Daniel gets mad at Jonas>Daniel becomes suspicious of Jonas and ties him up>Bree is sympathetic and loosens Jonas' bonds. Now again maybe that was some kind of joint decision, maybe it was not.

My major concern has always been the mixing of story and game. I posted about it long before any of this happened. And if GR has done nothing wrong and stays or even if he moves on I'll still post that concern because I don't think the mixing the storygaming and linear storytelling will appeal to the masses. I answered you here because you disagreed with me here. Anyway I'm tired of all of it and can't wait for it to be over.

[VanillaFlava]

I think I am going to have to disagree with some of what immortal1 and vanillaflava have said about glenn's storywriting abililites.

Sure, but where did I say anything about GR's storytelling abilities? Other than maybe, I don't think it's necessarily his fault the two approaches do not form a coherent story vehicle right now.

Seriously, this is not personal for me at all. I have no knowledge, nor feelings either way about the recent meta-drama, except for maybe some things that rubbed me the wrong way, that do not belong here. I have also not been interested nor engaged in the ARG at all, which leads to my realisation and summary above.

I agree with immortal1 on most points here, except for the assumption that story-telling and storygaming don't work well together. I think they could work VERY well together if thoroughly planned and executed, and most likely presented in a fashion other than a linear stream of videos. However, the gaming elements have been sort of retro-actively inserted into the storytelling and that certainly does not work well at all, in my opinion.

I also emphatically share Lurker's opinion that making the ARG central at this stage of the story's progression would not be a very good thing at all.
Then again, we only have one statement to this effect, and I hope we will soon be given some offical clarification, so we can all move on.

[milowent]

I think I am going to have to disagree with some of what immortal1 and vanillaflava have said about glenn's storywriting abililites.

Sure, but where did I say anything about GR's storytelling abilities? Other than maybe, I don't think it's necessarily his fault the two approaches do not form a coherent story vehicle right now.

sorry vanilla, going back, i was a bit hasty there. it was late and i wanted to post in a relevant place before hitting the sack. And about it maybe not being his fault that the ARG and lg15 don't mesh well right now, that's a good point.

I also emphatically share Lurker's opinion that making the ARG central at this stage of the story's progression would not be a very good thing at all.

Agreed. Plus, to be crass and mention the fact the the Creators have to eat, i don't think such a business plan would be profitable

[Caslynn]

I'm going to do this in as few words as possible.


The game needs Glenn. Heck, LG15 needs Glenn pretty badly too, look at how much the videos have improved in the time that he started writing for and directing them. And if Glenn's gone, I'm willing to bet a lot of us will be too.

And all the product placement in the world won't save it then.

[surrealisticpill]

I'm going to do this in as few words as possible.


The game needs Glenn. Heck, LG15 needs Glenn pretty badly too, look at how much the videos have improved in the time that he started writing for and directing them. And if Glenn's gone, I'm willing to bet a lot of us will be too.

And all the product placement in the world won't save it then.

right on, cas. i miss you, babe, PM me!

[mourningbelle]

As much as I wish it were otherwise, I think the possibility of the game progressing with Glenn as the PM is pretty much null at this point. I may not agree with the decision made by the creators, but that's not the issue anymore. What's done is done, in respect to OpAphid.

What's distressing is the thought of him no longer having a part in LG15.. His storytelling, character development, editing, and direction were all exactly what the series needed. He paid attention to detail, loved the story, and was able to consider the direction of the plot from a perspective that the other creators weren't able to have. To have someone who was originally a fan involved in the series allowed us to feel like our opinions were actually recognized and mattered, whether or not that was the case.