0188 - "Naive Girl" [05/08/07]

[Lurker]

You think kidnapping a child is morally superior to letting it make its own mistakes?

I think the kidnapping is morally superior than leaving her with people who you think are going to kill her, yes.

If she thinks Jules is in danger, and Jules doesn't want to listen, the right decision would have been to tail her, and protect her when the time comes.

I think that would have been the choice to make if they didn't think the ceremony would kill her. In other words, if they didn't really have any idea one way or the other, follow her until the time came, and then protect her if it came to that.

[Renegade]

So they just violated her before the Order could, to get it all over with?

[Lurker]

So they just violated her before the Order could, to get it all over with?

Kidnapping does not equal murdering.

[Renegade]

That's like saying "raping an adult woman is better than raping a girl, 'cause she can cope with it better".

Jules was violently kidnapped and held prisoner by three strangers. It doesn't matter what might have happened had she not been kidnapped. She is terrified to death, and if this was the real world, she'd probably be traumatized to no end. Fucking her up for the rest of her life is not better than killing her.


Not to mention that, as far as I know, not even our Ceremony Princess herself knows what the ceremony is. Who's to say it's not just a big sit-in with pizza and spin-art? They have no idea when the ceremony is, nor what the ceremony is. Yet they think it's perfectly reasonable to just kidnap a teenage girl as a pre-emptive measure.

And if they behave like that, we don't need the Order anymore. BD&J behave evil enough to be the villain.

[Haether]

That's like saying "raping an adult woman is better than raping a girl, 'cause she can cope with it better".

I'd actually agree with this statement.

Jules was violently kidnapped

I wouldn't call it violent...a little rough, more like it. It's not like Jonas whipped out his famous gun for this little adventure.


People need to calm down about this. She's fine.

[Lurker]

That's like saying "raping an adult woman is better than raping a girl, 'cause she can cope with it better".

Uh ... no, it's not like saying that at all, because you're talking about the same act in both cases. Again, kidnapping does not equal murder. If you want to debate whether murder or rape is worse, say so (for the record: I think rape can certainly be worse), but that's not what I was talking about, and - unless the ceremony has been implied to involve rape - it's irrelevant to this scenario.

Not to mention that, as far as I know, not even our Ceremony Princess herself knows what the ceremony is. Who's to say it's not just a big sit-in with pizza and spin-art?

Because what we've been told so far would suggest that it is something horrible. Gemma's story about a girl who did the ceremony 12 years ago was true. That was Tachyon's sister. After this ceremony happened, Tachyon's parents took her and left the commune without even stopping to get their dog or take a single thing with them.

Later, Tachyon implied to a forum member that something bad happened to her sister. She didn't say what it was, no, but she made it clear that it was bad. Let's stop real quick and remember that Gemma and Tachyon were on opposite sides and both have acknowledged this.

Now, given that Bree has spent quite a bit of time around Tachyon, I think it's reasonable to believe that she knows more than we do about what happened - and since we know enough to think it's something bad, Bree definitely should.

[Luminous]

So they just violated her before the Order could, to get it all over with?

Kidnapping does not equal murdering.

Your right Lurker - murder is over and done with. Kidnapping is a trauma you have to carry the rest of your life.

[Rufus]

I don't see it as a true "kidnapping", more of a very poor plan to "deprogram" a young girl who is very likely to be in a world of hurt if she continues to go along with the order.

[Renegade]

I've just said it all in the complaints-thread, but let me just repeat one thing here: We have yet to see the Order hurt any ceremony girl.

Bree didn't die. Bree wasn't hurt. Bree wasn't fake-killed in the fake ceremony. Bree doesn't know what happens at the actual ceremony.

There is no proof whats-o-ever that Jules would be hurt, and, although I agree it is likely, storywise, as everything else would be boring, a vague chance is no justification for BD&J to just kidnap people.


As far as Jules is concerned, the Order never hurt her, while the people opposing the Order attacked on the open street and kidnapped her a few days later.

Kidnapping is worse than what the Order does to her, because, so far, the Order did nothing to her. And there is no proof, neither in-game nor out of game, that she had been hurt by the Order had BD&J not hurt her first.

As I said, I posted most of it in the complaints thread...I'd only repeat myself here.

[Haether]

We have yet to see the Order hurt any ceremony girl.

injections of Epogen could most certainly hurt a normal healthy person.
from:http://wwwext.amgen.com/media/media_pr_ ... eID=972417

Updated information for patients in the revised label notes that "patients should be informed of the increased risks of mortality, serious cardiovascular events, thromboembolic events, and tumor progression when used in off-label dose regimens or populations."

Giving injections of epogen to a healthy, non-anemic teenage girl could be deadly.

This is, of course, assuming the injections are epogen, which appears to be the concensus thus far.

Jules wasn't hurt, she's free now, and now the Order can kill, bloodlet, do whatever they please with her. So, if Jules is in danger, and the TAAG know it, are they then acting amorally if they do not help her?

[garnet]

The TAAG was abducted too. They seem glad to have survived.

Fear triggers a release of adrenaline that causes a "fight or flight" response. The fact that Jules did both - fight and flight, only reinforces the arguement.

This is interesting in light of "Spring Break Sucks."

[Languorous Lass]

That's like saying "raping an adult woman is better than raping a girl, 'cause she can cope with it better".

Jules was violently kidnapped and held prisoner by three strangers. It doesn't matter what might have happened had she not been kidnapped. She is terrified to death, and if this was the real world, she'd probably be traumatized to no end. Fucking her up for the rest of her life is not better than killing her.

I'd really like to know why you think this is true.

[chershaytoute]

sack36, I live in Oregon - so I'm on Pacific time, too! <beaming>

While I'm not always on late, late at night, I can be something of an insomniac. Unfortunately, my insomnia can be based on migraines...but because they are chronic, I still find myself gravitating on and off toward my computer.

With spam, the first thing to do, of course, is to post an alert in the Canned Spam area.

But at ANY time, please feel free to check and see if I'm in the forums. You are more than welcome to try alerting me. I will even try to remember to start taking my headphones off the computer so I can hear the alerts if I'm not sitting right there - which, because of the migraines, I may or may not be... <rueful grin>

You'll note, BTW, that I have made sure to be available in PMs, email, AIM, and Yahoo... I hope this will help!

[joygasm]

So... um yea... silly girl won't listen to bree.

[nowherepixie]

Why dont they just show her the videos they've made?

Instead of trying to talk to her give her some solid evidence.