True free will and the Order: The goals of an individual?

[BrightSilence]

In this topic I've raised questions about a 'member' of the order and her free will and own oppinion. I am convinced that acting solely in the interest of a group can never reflect your own thoughts and feelings. Instead you should thinks for yourself, don't follow your leader. In the interest of keeping this place clean and neat I decided to move the offtopic conversation to it's own topic. I will quote the discussion here. Everybody, Order, Resistance or neutral, feel free to step in on this, it's a forum after all.

I was bowing done to you Danielle.

Please, I'd prefer you bow down to my purpose, for I am simply a chorus girl for the greatness that is The Order.

How do you like it to feel like you are nothing on your own? Do you rely on your cause to feel like you are worthy to live?

Why do you accept being a pawn? Does ignorance bring you happiness?

When the order fails to reach it's goals and ceases to exist, will you fade away into a void?

What does that make you?

The Order and I are one united being. We share the same goals, so why shouldn't I add my voice to their eternal song?

I am not a pawn. I am more autonomous in my lifestyle than you will ever be in yours. I am in my position today because I fought against your sterotypes, bias, and skeptism. I have broken through your status quo and found peace in a community with like minded individuals. The Order will never cease, because there will always be people like me... that are willing to stand up and fight for what is right and good.

Like protection.

You pretend to know my lifestyle while you have no clue who I am. (like, what's my real name, age or sex for that matter?) I base my opinions solely on my own perception. Evaluating the source of all information. Through this way I collect, analyze and evaluate all intelligence. I do not follow the opninions of a group or higher power, instead I think for myself and as an independent third person tell others what I think, whether they agree or not. Leaving them the space to agree or disagree as they like.

However you don't seem to be open to what others believe, at least not when it contradicts what you've been told.

If you are so certain your goals are actually the same as the goals of the order, why don't you state them and let 'us' be the judge. I have no fear to say what I do or do not know, I even realise that ultimately we can't know anything for sure.

However in the reality of my perception, I feel I'm the only one capable and trustworthy of judging my surroundings. As should everyone else.

Therefore my advice to Sarah is really my own advice: "Be carefull while you are having fun". Unlike you, who seem to post in name of a greater power. You've connected every single post to the order and therefore seem to lack an own oppinion. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you would NEVER go against the ideas of the order. Even if they go against everything you initially believed. Don't be a mindless drone, break out and annoy the world with things you really believe, kind of like I do... I can't promise you they will listen, but if they do it'll mean much more then ever before. Be open and start a debate on all sides, and that includes debating with the order. (whether it is an inner debate or a public debate)

Reality check 100%. BrightSilence singing off...

Ok that's it until now. Let the debate continue!

There doesn't seem to be an in character discussion board here (general discussion, not character interaction). So I have posted this here, however just for this topic I'd like it if people would stay in character when joining in on the discussion.

[Spades]

How come then everyone has to dress the same?

(I think we should rename the thread "12 Angry Teens" or "Ceremonial Primary Debate 2007")

[chershaytoute]

I think I found a better home for this...so am going to do a quick scootch to an In-Character area I think you'll like...

[EricaCrowley]

In this topic I've raised questions about a 'member' of the order and her free will and own oppinion. I am convinced that acting solely in the interest of a group can never reflect your own thoughts and feelings. Instead you should thinks for yourself, don't follow your leader. In the interest of keeping this place clean and neat I decided to move the offtopic conversation to it's own topic. I will quote the discussion here. Everybody, Order, Resistance or neutral, feel free to step in on this, it's a forum after all.

I was bowing done to you Danielle.

Please, I'd prefer you bow down to my purpose, for I am simply a chorus girl for the greatness that is The Order.

How do you like it to feel like you are nothing on your own? Do you rely on your cause to feel like you are worthy to live?

Why do you accept being a pawn? Does ignorance bring you happiness?

When the order fails to reach it's goals and ceases to exist, will you fade away into a void?

What does that make you?

The Order and I are one united being. We share the same goals, so why shouldn't I add my voice to their eternal song?

I am not a pawn. I am more autonomous in my lifestyle than you will ever be in yours. I am in my position today because I fought against your sterotypes, bias, and skeptism. I have broken through your status quo and found peace in a community with like minded individuals. The Order will never cease, because there will always be people like me... that are willing to stand up and fight for what is right and good.

Like protection.

You pretend to know my lifestyle while you have no clue who I am. (like, what's my real name, age or sex for that matter?) I base my opinions solely on my own perception. Evaluating the source of all information. Through this way I collect, analyze and evaluate all intelligence. I do not follow the opninions of a group or higher power, instead I think for myself and as an independent third person tell others what I think, whether they agree or not. Leaving them the space to agree or disagree as they like.

However you don't seem to be open to what others believe, at least not when it contradicts what you've been told.

If you are so certain your goals are actually the same as the goals of the order, why don't you state them and let 'us' be the judge. I have no fear to say what I do or do not know, I even realise that ultimately we can't know anything for sure.

However in the reality of my perception, I feel I'm the only one capable and trustworthy of judging my surroundings. As should everyone else.

Therefore my advice to Sarah is really my own advice: "Be carefull while you are having fun". Unlike you, who seem to post in name of a greater power. You've connected every single post to the order and therefore seem to lack an own oppinion. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you would NEVER go against the ideas of the order. Even if they go against everything you initially believed. Don't be a mindless drone, break out and annoy the world with things you really believe, kind of like I do... I can't promise you they will listen, but if they do it'll mean much more then ever before. Be open and start a debate on all sides, and that includes debating with the order. (whether it is an inner debate or a public debate)

Reality check 100%. BrightSilence singing off...

Ok that's it until now. Let the debate continue!

There doesn't seem to be an in character discussion board here (general discussion, not character interaction). So I have posted this here, however just for this topic I'd like it if people would stay in character when joining in on the discussion.

I think you should show more respect for other people’s religious beliefs. The Order, as people around here like to call it, has been in existence since the beginning of time. If Judaism started with Adam then that would be the first religion and then we would be the second oldest religion. No one can destroy a great religion even one that lives in the shadows. What has become of those people who tried to destroy Judaism or Christianity? Those people faded in history. However the last time I checked the Jews and Christians are doing just fine. No one has ever tried to truly destroy the OoD or the HoO. People have left the religion and that is their right. My own father left the OoD before my mother died. Do you think the Catholic Church losses any sleep over fallen Catholics that denounce and attack their Church? I can assure you that the Pope has more important things on his mind.

What you have said is just so intolerant as to be unbelievable. Would you think to say that about Christianity, Buddhism, or Islam? I’m not trying to claim that all the members of the OoD or HoO are perfect because they are not. No human being is perfect or ever has been except for possibly Jesus and Mary (or so I have read). Just as there are bad people in society there are bad people in the HoO. Sin is natural and G_D forgives people for their transgressions. You should question your understanding of Good and Evil. Many people would say that it is sinful for Sarah and Daniel to express their love or even their lust in a sexual fashion. How foolish. I hope they are having sex everyday of the week. Is this a sin? I say no, it is a thing of beauty. Think about sin. When Eve accepted the gift of intelligence from Lucifer, G_D felt that she had sinned and he punished her and Adam by expelling them from the garden. Was that really such a curse? I believe he still allowed them to enter the realm of Heaven (not that Hell should be feared by anyone who loves Lucifer). Few so called sins are actually punished and even those that are kept out of Heaven rarely suffer in the pits of Hell, only those that have angered both G_D and Lucifer are destine for eternal suffering (and even then there is the possibility of forgiveness in Hell). What sin is so great that it can not be forgiven in time? Lucifer/Satan rebelled against G_D but he can still freely enters Heaven and is part of the G_D’s Court. Read the Book of Job. Does Satan not serve as the Prosecutor for G_D despite their conflict?

Erica

[EricaCrowley]

How come then everyone has to dress the same?

(I think we should rename the thread "12 Angry Teens" or "Ceremonial Primary Debate 2007")

Neither the HoO nor the OoD has a dress code. You are of course referring to the Watchers and I can’t deny that the do love their black. I’ll be honest on this subject. I think they dress like that to separate themselves from other members of the Order. It can appear quite intimidating and sometimes that can be good. Think of the way the Secret Service dresses. Would you mess with one of those guys?

Erica

[EricaCrowley]

In this topic I've raised questions about a 'member' of the order and her free will and own oppinion. I am convinced that acting solely in the interest of a group can never reflect your own thoughts and feelings. Instead you should thinks for yourself, don't follow your leader. In the interest of keeping this place clean and neat I decided to move the offtopic conversation to it's own topic. I will quote the discussion here. Everybody, Order, Resistance or neutral, feel free to step in on this, it's a forum after all.

I will try to answer this foolish question as I am the closest thing the OoD has to a leader. No member of the Hymn of One or the OoD answers to any person but themselves. Like any spiritual or religious group we do have shared beliefs that draw us together. People are encouraged to think for themselves and come up with truthful answers to the mysteries of the universe. As human beings we are always unlocking new secrets in both the physical and spiritual world. Without the freedom of thought that our members have we would simply be another stagnant religion trying to fill pews on Sunday. Instead we are a living system of science and faith. We do not hold forth that we are the only true system of belief because we are always in search of a better understanding of the universe in which we live. I don’t think any true religion offers more freedom to its members then the Hymn of One.

Erica

[Danielle]

How come then everyone has to dress the same?

(I think we should rename the thread "12 Angry Teens" or "Ceremonial Primary Debate 2007")

Neither the HoO nor the OoD has a dress code. You are of course referring to the Watchers and I can’t deny that the do love their black. I’ll be honest on this subject. I think they dress like that to separate themselves from other members of the Order. It can appear quite intimidating and sometimes that can be good. Think of the way the Secret Service dresses. Would you mess with one of those guys?

Erica

I wear my black clothing with pride, knowing that their is great symbolism to be found in my clothing.

In many cultures black represents propserity, life, success, power, prestige, ambition, dominance, growth, achievement, justice, perfection, beauty and experience. Rather than reflecting another's light and imagery (like white), the black absorbs these attributes and in my interpretation learns and prospers from this.

Plus, I can wear it after labour day!

Also, we wouldn't want our religion to get confused with anything where they judge race or colour as a definative quality... because this simply is not true of the Hymn of One. Although there are many perspectives of the Black colour, this is my opinion of the use of this hue in my wardrobe.

Plus, F.C.U.K. always has the sexiest black dresses.

[gemmacrowley]

How come then everyone has to dress the same?

(I think we should rename the thread "12 Angry Teens" or "Ceremonial Primary Debate 2007")

Neither the HoO nor the OoD has a dress code. You are of course referring to the Watchers and I can’t deny that the do love their black. I’ll be honest on this subject. I think they dress like that to separate themselves from other members of the Order. It can appear quite intimidating and sometimes that can be good. Think of the way the Secret Service dresses. Would you mess with one of those guys?

Erica

I wear my black clothing with pride, knowing that their is great symbolism to be found in my clothing.

In many cultures black represents propserity, life, success, power, prestige, ambition, dominance, growth, achievement, justice, perfection, beauty and experience. Rather than reflecting another's light and imagery (like white), the black absorbs these attributes and in my interpretation learns and prospers from this.

Plus, I can wear it after labour day!

Also, we wouldn't want our religion to get confused with anything where they judge race or colour as a definative quality... because this simply is not true of the Hymn of One. Although there are many perspectives of the Black colour, this is my opinion of the use of this hue in my wardrobe.

Plus, F.C.U.K. always has the sexiest black dresses.

Labour day, that's great. I need to buy more black.

Cheers,
Gemma

[Spades]

The Order, as people around here like to call it, has been in existence since the beginning of time.

The Egyptian civilization did not exist at the dawn of time. In actuality, humanity in itself did not exist.

And do not bring other religions into this. The topic is your religion.

Neither the HoO nor the OoD has a dress code.

Are you even a member? I have seen that many of the older members tend to wear black, and the youngest white. There have been many videos that show this. Danielle, who apparently your sister in you large family, has stated that she "wears her black with pride".

As well as you going as far as saying that the Watchers are attempting to intimidate others, would that not go against prior claims that the Order is peaceful?

Why are some members in black, and some in white? I was faulted in my previous question, now I see what I should ask.

Does black signify authority? Why should these members be in charge of these people's lives if that is true?

There also seems to be any lack of individuality in your group, and it seems your message is to surrender yourself by giving up everything you know, including who you are, so they may become One. This is a tactic that has been used many times, and mainly for very wrong reasons.

Disclaimer: I have nothing against the actual people in this discussion. As for your characters...

And I always wear a black tee. They suck in the summer.

[EricaCrowley]

The Order, as people around here like to call it, has been in existence since the beginning of time.

The Egyptian civilization did not exist at the dawn of time. In actuality, humanity in itself did not exist.

And do not bring other religions into this. The topic is your religion.

Neither the HoO nor the OoD has a dress code.

Are you even a member? I have seen that many of the older members tend to wear black, and the youngest white. There have been many videos that show this. Danielle, who apparently your sister in you large family, has stated that she "wears her black with pride".

As well as you going as far as saying that the Watchers are attempting to intimidate others, would that not go against prior claims that the Order is peaceful?

Why are some members in black, and some in white? I was faulted in my previous question, now I see what I should ask.

Does black signify authority? Why should these members be in charge of these people's lives if that is true?

There also seems to be any lack of individuality in your group, and it seems your message is to surrender yourself by giving up everything you know, including who you are, so they may become One. This is a tactic that has been used many times, and mainly for very wrong reasons.

Disclaimer: I have nothing against the actual people in this discussion. As for your characters...

And I always wear a black tee. They suck in the summer.

What a rude little person you are.

How dare you type to me in such a fashion?

What in G_D’s name does Egyptian civilization have to do with this? Do you think we started in Egypt just because there are the ruins of OoD Temples there?

As for the color black, you are speaking about ceremonial robes. I see no reason to explain to you what the colors symbolize. During rituals black is worn by the high ranking members of the faith such as OoD. White robes would be worn by children and others of lower standing. Therefore it is only natural that those who understand the meaning of these colors would be inclined to dress in dark colors in their daily lives. I myself am going through a grey faze at the moment. I must have purchased twelve different grey outfits in the last week from Channel so by no means do we spend our entire lives walking around dressed in black. I don’t think that I have ever seen Gemma wear black outside of a Temple or at least not a completely black outfit.

As for Watchers, their purpose is to protect the members of the faith. So they are intimidating, I don’t think that anyone would argue with the fact that the best way to avoid the use of violence is to present an image of strength. The HoO is a path to spiritual enlightenment but we do not turn the other cheek. We protect our power, our assets, and our faith. We never take action against those who are not trying to harm us. However we will destroy anyone that attempts to harm our faith.

In the future you will address me in a proper fashion. Just because this is the Internet does not give you the right to speak like an uncivilized slob. Treat yourself with some respect and ask your questions in an exact and civil tone.

Erica

[EricaCrowley]

Spades

As for the second part of your question, all religions have a hierarchy. Member of the HoO have a shared belief system. Certain members have more knowledge than others. Religion like life is a journey. Was the late Mr. Crowley born with the ability to perform Magick? No, but he subjected himself to the teachings of the Golden Dawn and other groups until mastered what he desired to learn. The choice to subjugate your soul to a system of religion or even government is a natural part of human nature. Without such subjection in the world we would be left nothing but anarchy and chaos. However that decision is left up to the individual. I think many people have misunderstood the voluntary nature of our religion because of this very unique situation with Bree.

Also our message is not to surrender yourself but to fulfill your potential.

Erica

[gemmacrowley]

Erica,

You really don’t need to be expending your energy arguing with someone like Spade. You’re far too sick to worry about what people like him think. Spade is the type of person that sees conspiracy under every rock. He likely thinks that Freemasons control the world and the USA faked the moon landing. People like that are just weak. If people like him ruled the world then our soliders in Iraq would be wearing flowered shirts so that they wouldn’t seem so intimidating to the terrorists.

Gemma

[Spades]

Spade is the type of person that sees conspiracy under every rock.

Well... let's just say I have trust issues, and nothing more. But, I could care less about Freemasons, I think I'm a little too young for that one, and the last time I cared about the moon was when it was full and I was looking for my dropped car keys. There is no way the people of the United Sates could ever help the people in Iraq because of vast cultural differences, and the fact that they both do not want to bridge the gap. At least, in my eyes.

But that is not the issue.

Erica, I would like to thank you for your answers, you are the first person to answer any of them, instead of just... skirting around them. I am truly sorry though, I was unaware that you held the significance that you do.

I came out swinging because I did not look into who you were, and it seemed that you were attacking someone else.

I have heard many ideas on the Hymn, some are very contradictory. I'm quite confused on what you do and do not believe.

[BlogGirl14]

gemma and erica? you sisters?

[gemmacrowley]

gemma and erica? you sisters?

No, I'm just staying with Erica. We have been friends since childhood however.

Gemma