A new theory: Nuit kills man?

[Languorous Lass]

LOL sorry but you made everyone's head spin....try this:

Nut kills Man kills Squirrel.

Bree Kills Daniel Kills Cult.

HA! I love it.

Am too tired to understand the explanation right now.

Understandably. Sorry for making everyone's head spin.

[greenshimmer]

Hello,
My! You've done your research! Reminds me of college. Theorizing is fun, isn't it? Well, all I have to say for now is bravo! Looks like you put some serious thought into this!

So far it makes sense (though I'll have to re-read a coulple of times to fully grasp everything).

It does seem as though sex is very involved: woman the elastic, man the rigid. Elastic (the woman's genitals) as life, rigid (the man's genitals) as death. It's all very brilliant, lol.

I don't know about the cannibalism part though...although it makes a great theory, I really can't imagine the LG15 series going in that direction.

I'm not even sure I understand everything written here, but maybe the sacrifice isn't mortal (or edible har har). Maybe it's about friendship. Perhaps, if she is to be a good cultist, she has to sacrifice her friendship with Daniel. He is an outsider, and possibly a threat to her commitment to her religion. Maybe she is to crush their relationship. After all, the cult did convince her to lie to him, and fool him into thinking that he was at the real ceremony.

Perhaps the rebirth is about the relationship as well. Maybe it's a rebirth of her spiritual self without temptation to stray from the community (because she would have gotten rid of Daniel The Outsider). Daniel is no longer in the position to sway her away from her religion because she has confirmed her faith.

Daniel basically said "me or your religion"...and if she goes through with the ceremony then the answer is clear.

Now I'm probably not making any sense...and maybe I misinterpreted everything. Like I said, I'll have to reread stuff and do more research!!

Either way, Bravo again! lol

(Note: if you get bored with detailed research, skip to the part of this message headed "So WHAT'S THE POINT . . . .")

Sheesh, storyteller. Could Crowley's writing have been any more opaque? Clear as mud.

Okay, I'll try to tackle the excerpt you quoted. My immediate reaction is to think that because Nuit is the ultimate woman (according to Crowley in the same letter you quote) and Hadit is the ultimate man, the "Magical Formula of their interaction" is sex, pure and simple.

To check out this theory, I had to look up some words.

One meaning of "centripetal" is "moving or directed toward a center or axis." Sounds to me something like a funnel; something round, at any rate.

"Centrifugal" means, essentially, the opposite: "moving or directed away from a center or axis."

What's an axis? One meaning is: "A straight line about which a body or geometric object rotates or may be conceived to rotate." Not too different from, say, the axle of a bike wheel.

Okay, so Crowley says Nuit is "centripetal energy [energy directed toward an axis, aka a long narrow object -- sound familiar?], infinitely elastic because it must fit over the hard thrust directed against it."

Something round or funnel-like that has to be elastic so it can fit over a hard thrust? Sure sounds like sexual intercourse to me.

"Hadit, the centrifugal, ever seeking to penetrate the unknown."

(snicker) He said "penetrate."

Anyway, I don't think I need to belabor this point.

For the last part, about Nuit being like Teh as described in Lao-Tze: Crowley himself translated Lao-Tze's Tao Te Ching, which he rendered as "Tao Teh King." In that translation, he defined the Teh this way: "The Teh is the immortal enemy of the Tao, its feminine aspect. Heaven and Earth issued from her Gate; this Gate is the Root of their World-Sycamore. Its operation is of pure Joy and Love, and faileth never."

All this sounds like the description in Wikipedia of the Egyptian idea of Nuit (the sky goddess as well as the death goddess), who originally "lay eternally having sex with" her husband Geb. The same description says that she became the goddess of resurrection and rebirth, and that "the heavenly bodies [presumably dead -- we're talking resurrection here] would enter her mouth, traverse her skies and be reborn with dawn out of her womb."

Now I see where some of the cannibal imagery may have come from.

Crowley's translation of the Tao also talks about elasticity and hardness in another context: that of death. Here's the relevant part:

1. At the birth of man, he is elastic and weak; at his death, rigid and unyielding. This is the common law; trees also, in their youth, are tender and supple; in their decay, hard and dry.

2. So then rigidity and hardness are the stigmata of death; elasticity and adaptability, of life.

Elasticity = the female principle = life.

Hardness = the male principle (remember that "hard thrust"?) = death.

The translation includes a lot of stuff about Will, not surprisingly. Most important, I think, is this chapter about "the discrimination (viveka) of Teh" (I dunno, you figure it out). Here's the second part of the chapter:

"He that adapteth himself perfectly to his environment, continueth for long; he who dieth without dying, liveth for ever."

(I added the italics to that last quote.)

There's lots more about Teh that doesn't seem relevant, but then there's this: "If the kingdom be ruled according to the Tao, the spirits of our ancestors will not manifest their Teh. These spirits have this Teh, but will not turn it against men. It is able to hurt men; so also is the Wise King; but he doth not."

*************
So WHAT'S THE POINT of all this info?

Remember, under this theory, Bree is supposed to represent Nut/Nuit, the Ultimate Female, in the ceremony. Crowley describes Nuit as "infinitely elastic." Elasticity is associated with life. What's more, if Bree/Nuit is like Teh as described by Lao-Tze, then she will be "able to hurt men." That's consistent with "Nut kills man."

The male principle (embodied in Hadit), OTOH, is associated with hardness. Hardness, in turn, is one of the "stigmata of death."

In Egyptian mythology, the dead "heavenly bodies" will enter Nuit's mouth and be reborn out of her womb "with dawn." Some smart person on the Forum -- sorry, can't remember who -- who was analyzing the "Proving Longitude Wrong" video figured out that the time shown on the two clocks in that video was the time of sunrise at . . . well, whatever the relevant longitude would be. So it looks like the creators are hinting that there's some significance to sunrise, aka dawn.

So maybe (writing this grosses me out, but it's part of the theory) Bree's supposed to sacrifice Daniel (representing the male principle) and then, um, eat him. So that he can be resurrected out of her womb (metaphorically, I hope) at dawn. "He who dieth without dying, liveth for ever."

And maybe Nuit's relationship with Hadit will be manifested in the ceremony by Bree having sex with Daniel before she sacrifices him.

I've got some other ideas about how Free Will might play into all this, but I've spent too much time on this message already, so I'll save it for another time.

Meanwhile, please let me know if I'm completely nuts or if any of this makes sense.

[iqfrenzy]

Well researched and analyzed theory. Remember Bree saying if it's a choice between her religion and Daniel, her religion would win? Also the video "Daniel, Be Careful"? I believe these two videos were one after the other.

[KristenC]

(Note: if you get bored with detailed research, skip to the part of this message headed "So WHAT'S THE POINT . . . .")

Sheesh, storyteller. Could Crowley's writing have been any more opaque? Clear as mud.

Okay, I'll try to tackle the excerpt you quoted. My immediate reaction is to think that because Nuit is the ultimate woman (according to Crowley in the same letter you quote) and Hadit is the ultimate man, the "Magical Formula of their interaction" is sex, pure and simple.

To check out this theory, I had to look up some words.

One meaning of "centripetal" is "moving or directed toward a center or axis." Sounds to me something like a funnel; something round, at any rate.

"Centrifugal" means, essentially, the opposite: "moving or directed away from a center or axis."

What's an axis? One meaning is: "A straight line about which a body or geometric object rotates or may be conceived to rotate." Not too different from, say, the axle of a bike wheel.

Okay, so Crowley says Nuit is "centripetal energy [energy directed toward an axis, aka a long narrow object -- sound familiar?], infinitely elastic because it must fit over the hard thrust directed against it."

Something round or funnel-like that has to be elastic so it can fit over a hard thrust? Sure sounds like sexual intercourse to me.

"Hadit, the centrifugal, ever seeking to penetrate the unknown."

(snicker) He said "penetrate."

Anyway, I don't think I need to belabor this point.

For the last part, about Nuit being like Teh as described in Lao-Tze: Crowley himself translated Lao-Tze's Tao Te Ching, which he rendered as "Tao Teh King." In that translation, he defined the Teh this way: "The Teh is the immortal enemy of the Tao, its feminine aspect. Heaven and Earth issued from her Gate; this Gate is the Root of their World-Sycamore. Its operation is of pure Joy and Love, and faileth never."

All this sounds like the description in Wikipedia of the Egyptian idea of Nuit (the sky goddess as well as the death goddess), who originally "lay eternally having sex with" her husband Geb. The same description says that she became the goddess of resurrection and rebirth, and that "the heavenly bodies [presumably dead -- we're talking resurrection here] would enter her mouth, traverse her skies and be reborn with dawn out of her womb."

Now I see where some of the cannibal imagery may have come from.

Crowley's translation of the Tao also talks about elasticity and hardness in another context: that of death. Here's the relevant part:

1. At the birth of man, he is elastic and weak; at his death, rigid and unyielding. This is the common law; trees also, in their youth, are tender and supple; in their decay, hard and dry.

2. So then rigidity and hardness are the stigmata of death; elasticity and adaptability, of life.

Elasticity = the female principle = life.

Hardness = the male principle (remember that "hard thrust"?) = death.

The translation includes a lot of stuff about Will, not surprisingly. Most important, I think, is this chapter about "the discrimination (viveka) of Teh" (I dunno, you figure it out). Here's the second part of the chapter:

"He that adapteth himself perfectly to his environment, continueth for long; he who dieth without dying, liveth for ever."

(I added the italics to that last quote.)

There's lots more about Teh that doesn't seem relevant, but then there's this: "If the kingdom be ruled according to the Tao, the spirits of our ancestors will not manifest their Teh. These spirits have this Teh, but will not turn it against men. It is able to hurt men; so also is the Wise King; but he doth not."

*************
So WHAT'S THE POINT of all this info?

Remember, under this theory, Bree is supposed to represent Nut/Nuit, the Ultimate Female, in the ceremony. Crowley describes Nuit as "infinitely elastic." Elasticity is associated with life. What's more, if Bree/Nuit is like Teh as described by Lao-Tze, then she will be "able to hurt men." That's consistent with "Nut kills man."

The male principle (embodied in Hadit), OTOH, is associated with hardness. Hardness, in turn, is one of the "stigmata of death."

In Egyptian mythology, the dead "heavenly bodies" will enter Nuit's mouth and be reborn out of her womb "with dawn." Some smart person on the Forum -- sorry, can't remember who -- who was analyzing the "Proving Longitude Wrong" video figured out that the time shown on the two clocks in that video was the time of sunrise at . . . well, whatever the relevant longitude would be. So it looks like the creators are hinting that there's some significance to sunrise, aka dawn.

So maybe (writing this grosses me out, but it's part of the theory) Bree's supposed to sacrifice Daniel (representing the male principle) and then, um, eat him. So that he can be resurrected out of her womb (metaphorically, I hope) at dawn. "He who dieth without dying, liveth for ever."

And maybe Nuit's relationship with Hadit will be manifested in the ceremony by Bree having sex with Daniel before she sacrifices him.

I've got some other ideas about how Free Will might play into all this, but I've spent too much time on this message already, so I'll save it for another time.

Meanwhile, please let me know if I'm completely nuts or if any of this makes sense.

I admire the effort you put into this, but I can't say I agree with you. You made connections based on specific wording of definitions (centripetal and centrifugal, etc), not on what the terms actually mean in a broader sense. And after all of the sexual talk, where did you come up with cannabalism part? Furthermore, how could he be resurrected out of her womb just because she ate him? And how could the birth happen so soon afterward? Does your mother need to have a special talk with you? Sorry, not meaning to poke fun, but I just wanted to point out a few holes in the argument. Feel free to correct me if I have said anything that doesn't make sense myself.

[jc_gypsy7]

Holy cow, Langourous Lass... how long did it take you to find all the references and put that message together?!

And yes... it does seem to be a valid possibility tho I'm thinking it'll be considered too extreme.

[Languorous Lass]

And after all of the sexual talk, where did you come up with cannabalism part?

Well, Bree's made reference to cannibalism in at least two videos: "School Work in Summer" and Swimming. Plus, re: the sexual stuff: the goddess Nut/Nuit supposedly started out eternally having sex with Geb, her husband -- presumably before she started swallowing heavenly bodies and rebirthing them at dawn.

Furthermore, how could he be resurrected out of her womb just because she ate him? And how could the birth happen so soon afterward? Does your mother need to have a special talk with you?

Hee! I agree that some of these danged ideas don't make a lot of sense. But I didn't make them up -- I'm just quoting from different sources about what different religions (which seem related to Bree's religion) believe or have believed. The stuff about entering the mouth and being reborn through the womb, for example, was a direct quote from the Wikipedia description of Egyptian beliefs about the goddess Nut, who is the subject of the whole theory.

The stuff about being immediately reborn, though, not only comes from the sources I quote in my earlier posts in this thread -- it comes from a play written by Aleister Crowley, called "The Ship," that I talk about over in the "Pills and Shots" thread. (Admittedly, my post doesn't have much to do with pills and shots, but I was responding to an earlier post in the thread that mentioned ships.) In the play, a king is killed and dismembered and then reborn the next morning at dawn.

I've been wondering whether, in the ceremony Bree's preparing for, the Order of Denderah plans to produce the play, but carry out the killing and dismembering in reality, rather than just symbolically.

The description of the play is consistent with the facts we know about Bree and her religion. We've heard how Bree needs to adhere to her "purity bond" in order to participate in the ceremony. One of the play's characters, Joanna, is described as "the innocent, the virgin; aspects of her are Persephone-like. She embodies a pureness, a sacredness within the shrine, and during the production, she goes through the passage of girlhood into adulthood. She is strong because she is pure. She is brave because she is innocent, and innocence can be a great strength." So Bree would definitely fit the description of Joanna's character.

In the play, the two female characters offer gifts to John, the king who is about to be killed. Joanna, the virgin, "offers corn to John, as it represents the body and the work of being." The other female character, Julia, represents "the mature Queen of Magick, wife, and mother." She offers John wine, representing "the blood of life." But Joanna, the virgin, "cannot offer that as she has yet to know the mysteries of the blood."

What "mysteries of the blood"? Nothing in the play indicates that Joanna is to be played by a premenstrual child; it says simply that she is a virgin. Maybe Joanna hasn't yet participated in the ritual slaughter and resurrection that the play is about. And maybe the same applies to Bree: that she won't be considered one of The Elect until she participates in the slaughter-and-resurrection ceremony.

Anyway, please forgive me for wandering off in tangents. My point is that I didn't make all this stuff up -- I got it from descriptions of Thelema or Egyptian mythology, or the writings of Aleister Crowley himself.

[Languorous Lass]

Holy cow, Langourous Lass... how long did it take you to find all the references and put that message together?!

Way too long. I seem to be getting obsessive. But this stuff's pretty interesting.

And yes... it does seem to be a valid possibility tho I'm thinking it'll be considered too extreme.

Maybe so. But thanks for considering the possibility.

[TJ Marsh]

hmmmm.

[KristenC]

Aha! Thank you, Langourous Lass, for clearing that up for me. I see through the gaps now... though it still seems to be stretching a bit. But then again, I think the same goes for neearly any other theory on the whole forum.

I've been watching the LG story for quite some time now, and lurking the forums as well, but praises to you for finally stirring up enough in me to get me to actually post! (my last comment was my first) And even more thanks for replying to my doubts with proof for each one! Well played.

[Languorous Lass]

Really? Your first post? I'm honored. (blush) Thanks for taking your first step into the forums! I've only been posting for a couple of weeks myself -- it was twjaniak's videos that inspired me.

My theory is just one of a number of theories floating about on the boards. But when the Nut/Nuit/"Nut kills man" connection came to me, I figured I might as well try spinning it out and seeing whether there was any evidence to support it.

Greenshimmer is absolutely right -- maybe the sacrifice is more spiritual than corporeal. But there's enough information out there (both in the Breeniverse, as iqfrenzy points out, and in easily-accessed sources about various religions, particularly Crowley's) that points to a more concrete -- and possibly bloody -- type of sacrifice.

Right now I just wish the creators would give us another danged video so we'd know what's going on, and so we'd have more clues! Grrrr.

Anyway, thanks again, and welcome again!

[Robyncorynne]

so, your theory's pretty much screwed, Gemma just said its not the Thelma thing.

Unless she's trying to throw us off
or the creators read this and said "bloody hell, now we have to change it" (because I imagine them with British accents and phases)

[Languorous Lass]

so, your theory's pretty much screwed, Gemma just said its not the Thelma thing.

Yeah, I saw that. So I guess it's time to start from scratch. Oh well.

[HenrySugar]

A great theory, but not a new one: http://www.lonelygirl15.com/forum/viewt ... c&start=60

I guess it seems new because nobody ever reads me, lol...umm yeah...

[spaciegirlreturn]

A great theory, but not a new one: http://www.lonelygirl15.com/forum/viewt ... c&start=60

I guess it seems new because nobody ever reads me, lol...umm yeah...

I remember

[Languorous Lass]

A great theory, but not a new one: http://www.lonelygirl15.com/forum/viewt ... c&start=60

I guess it seems new because nobody ever reads me, lol...umm yeah...

Gosh, Henry, I admit I didn't see/read your post -- I gave up on that thread because it seemed to have deteriorated into a "Is Gemma canon? Is her accent fake?" thread. But even reading your post now, I honestly can't tell that you're suggesting that Bree will sacrifice Daniel, because you never come right out and say it. If you also think that's a possibility, then cool. Let's talk about it more, especially after I get a chance to check the sources I cited in my posts to see if they're talking about Thelema or the Order.