trainer101 wrote:
The plot moves too slowly for you yet you don't have time to delve into the other areas of the story...
Tracheyon is not the story. It is part of the FANDOM's expansion of the story, which is not at all the same thing. Don't bother me with speculation.
If the cannon, by itself, doesn't have enough to keep people's interest and those who are fans are only in it for the forum fighting and the fanfiction then that really is it, it's over and I should have stopped watching long before now because the Creators don't have to do anything but kick back and sit pretty as other people's work creates the illusion that THIER stuff is better then it is.
True, the Tachyon/OpAphid portion is fan created and adopted as canon however, the creators stated several weeks ago that they did intend to incorporate ARG elements. OpA garnered so much interest (similar to CiW) that it was logical to adopt the story rather that create a new one. OpA is now a representation of a faction of "The Order" which was, in fact, part of the original storyline.
We (the "diehards") involve ourselves because it's a fun diversion. Same reason I'm debating with you. If you just posted "this sucks", I wouldn't have bothered to respond. But you seem thoughtful - with enough intellect to post a decent argument. To me, that makes this discussion entertaining - same reason I participate in the forum discussions in general.
Is it so bad that I ask my stories to come with some depth already built into them? Is the only way to have a rewarding LG15 experience to use that bare bones plot of thiers and create your own material exploring and explaining stuff they couldn't be bothered to?
I'm all for creative diversions. But if this is going to be taken seriously as an art form, let's see the creators themselves take it seriously. Lets see them actually try to tell a good story instead of relying on us to turn thier puddles into trenches.
And the first thing that needs to happen is...well...anything. If I get just one more video of a character just urging another character to do something I swear I'm gonna break a few characters of my own.
DreamerM wrote:
This show is awful at introducing new characters. They get no heralds. They get no build-up. We have endless people speculating about the mysterious phantom "cassia" yet we are expected to care about these two who come out of nowhere? Jonas doesn't even have any ties to the canon of the series, he's supposedly a fan like us. Are we supposed to like him? Why does he need to exist? Were the Creators just out of ideas?
All the character's vids in LG15 are exactly the same. Whatever is going on, you can count on everyone to personify stuffed animals and talk about unrelated stuff like it's important. This format was fun and fine. However, it does not fit anymore! Now that the much more serious plot-line has kicked in, the whimsical style of the videos (with their quick editing and careful music choice) is no longer appropriate, in fact it de-emphasizes the gravity of the character's situation. Gonna have heros in peril? there should be something at stake. We need some sort of visual acknowledgment of sense of the danger they are in. Less editing. WAY less Bree-being-cute.
We know Bree can be cute. Her childish antics in the early videos charmed thier way into all of our hearts. However, her situation has since changed drastically and yet the writers are still forcing CUTE BREE down our throats.
The reason why we like Daniel is he's a fully developed character. We've seen his tender side. We've seen his gruff, late-teenage self reliant psudo-apathy. We've seen him whiney and annoyed. We've seen him scared. We've seen he's physically strong AND we've seen how intelligent, resourceful, and brave he can be in a pinch.
Bree has yet to show anything more then her childish side. She has two settings: nervous-panicky and "cute." I can't even begin to imagine she is holding her own in her fights with Daniel. We are told she is, but we don't see it.
Let's see Bree be willful. Lets SEE her put her foot down about something and stick to her guns. Let's see some of that random intellect at work as she thinks up some way to crack the case. Let's get a sense of what she's capible of physically. Lets see her get ANGRY, and not tearful angry, ANGRY angry. Lets see her actually adressing and confronting the issues that have been piled on her, sorting through them and deciding on a course of action.
You make some excellent points here DreamerM. Especially your points about how they've introduced characters. They have the potential to get a lot of mileage out of this format by generating intense online speculation like they did with the mention of Cassie. But Jonas & Gemma just showed up unheralded and fans have unsurprisingly reacted negatively.
And it would (will) be great to see Bree's character develop as she learns to assert herself and bring her "random intellect" to bear in dealing with her bizarre situation.
But it has only been a few weeks since her parents were kidnapped and this show/blog does take place in real time. It makes sense to happen in real time bcause of the format. Moreover, this doesn't make the show boring because we only see the most interesting minute of each of her 2-3 days.
I disagree with your comments about the watchers, however. Gimmick they may be, but it may be that they have not presented themselves clearly as a threat because they are not a threat. It's not yet clear what their motivation is in following Bree & Daniel.
Above all, I'd just like to say that you present a lot of valuable insight. The Creators read these posts and, given how insightful yours are, may well take some of your arguments into account! I'm sorry that you are so hostile to the idea of posting your thoughts here because you clearly have much to offer to your fellow fans and to the producers of this shlog.
I think the Creators have a commitment problem: they're pretty quick to open up a plot thread but reluctant to close one. Consider the infamous Ceremony, for example: their "solution" of a fake ceremony satisfied no one, and the idea (lame) that maybe "10-12-06" means December 10 has been completely dropped by the fans, as has the idea of a ceremony itself.
What this means is that today we have no idea what the villain actually wants. This is a problem, fer sure, and it will be deadly to LG15 if not fixed.
Fortunately, the fix is pretty easy. (The solution is probably already there in OpAphid somewhere, but like many others I don't really follow OpAphid.) All the Creators need to do is commit to what a villain is really after. If Gemma posts this: "Bree, I confess, they bought me off, I lied to you, DON'T GO HOME, the time is nigh, the next time they find you, you will DISAPPEAR" then all of a sudden we know something and LG15 regains some traction. And this is just a weak example.
LG15 uses a new and exciting storytelling method, but interactive story creation is not new. Those of us who are gamemasters of FTF roleplaying games recognize the Creators' commitment problem very well. In a word, GMs suck if they can't kill off a PC when the story turns that way.
The Creators would do well to talk to a few good GMs about the rhythms of interactive story creation, and the instinct of when to bend the story to your players and when to bend the players to your story... but first, commit to something, please!
I agree with a lot of what DreamerM has said. Especially the sentiment that a story should come with its depth built-in. If additional depth gets added later, that's well and good, but there should be something there from the start, and it should remain uncompromised -- no matter what else might be suggested or demanded to happen.
I don't doubt that the Creators are well aware of these issues already, though. I think that they realize as well as we do that this is going to be a hard medium to sale. Quite honestly, it's altogether opposed to how we're conditioned to watch a story unfold. Back in the radio serial days, similar things were pulled off with more acceptance -- but they also didn't have e-mail back then, nor was everybody hopping planes and getting across the country in a few hours. Hell, letters might take weeks to reach their destinations.
I totally appreciate what the Creators are going for with trying to break new ground, BUT they need to remember that everything is a product of its time. Pacing is very important -- and that pacing will have to acknowledge the time period of the work. In the time period of radio serials, it worked. People could deal with that. It wasn't annoying as hell.
Today, we can get the news on our ipods. We can take pictures with our mobile phones and send them in e-mails through the same device. We can watch pretty much anything we want whenever we want thanks to things like YouTube or bit torrent (provided we're willing to ignore some copyright laws). Hell, we can buy music CDs without getting out of our chairs!
The world has never been at a faster pace than it is right now. This doesn't necessarily mean that they need to deliver the videos more regularly, or that they need to be longer, but it does mean that there needs to regularly be more to be entertained by.
No offense to the Tachyon/OpAphid fans, or the creators behind them (as I've mentioned before, I personally love the directing in those videos), but that thing is not so fun to most of the LG15 fans. Heck, most of the people who watch these videos don't even partake of regular forum discussion, must less bleed their brains to try figuring that stuff out.
What this means is that we've got the vast majority of the fanbase waiting patiently -- or not so patiently -- across the space of days for something that serves as episode 1 of 3 of the next part of the next chapter. I strongly believe that in order to hang onto the fanbase, this thing's either going to have to pick up speed in delivery, or -- if they want to maintain the integrity of the vlogging medium element -- they need to find a way to really keep the viewers involved whenever they feel like it, and in a way that doesn't necessarily annoy the piss out of them.
And like I've said before, I'm sure they know this. I honestly doubt I'm saying anything that they haven't already considered. The problem is, they're just not doing it right -- and they probably know that too! They probably just don't know what the heck to do with it. And you know what? I don't hold that against them. I don't know what to do with it! I know what the problem is, same as they do, but I don't know the answer to it.
Whoever does know the answer... whoever knows how to strike a balance here between pacing and regularly available content (that doesn't involve new videos but also doesn't involve puzzles that might be irrelevant) probably has a million dollar cheque waiting for them when they realize they have the answer.
Another issue that I'm sure the Creators are struggling with is how to truly make this thing interactive. Some people have suggested that the series has begun to slip into a tv-level of interactivity even while the pacing remains at the vlogging level. I agree. The chat from the other day? It served to do one thing: get Bree and Jonas to talk to one another in a supposedly realistic environment. While on the note of realism, by the way, the fact that it was the first time Gemma and Bree had talked to each other in real-time was absurd.
Anyway, that was a pseudo-interactive development in the story. What was going to happen with it was a foregone conclusion. People had it predicted well in advance. They also predicted what issues were going to come up between Bree and Daniel well in advance.
That's another problem with the pacing: things are so slow that everyone already knows what to expect. What's more, if the Creators really are taking cues from fan discussion, they can only deliver what's already expected, because of the slow pacing.
Perhaps the biggest problem with the idea of interactivity, though, is one that hasn't been brought up much yet: how do you decide what to use and what not to use? Will it be majority rules? If so, what's to stop a portion of the fanbase from dominating and the other from feeling alienated? If 60% want one thing to happen and 40% want something else to happen, yet we go with the majority's suggestion... well, 2/5 of your fanbase might be ready to walk away. I think that the Creators have probably considered this too.
Miles' and the others' attempt at breaking new ground is truly commendable, and I wish them luck -- but like so many others, I don't like being strung along. At the same time, I have some idea of what they might be going through, and I really sympathize with them. For them, this thing is going to make or break their careers. If it turns out as a success, then they've pulled off something that might have them set for life. I think Jessica Rose and Yousef are probably secure already (doors will be open for them, I have no doubt), but for the guys behind the camera, they're still in trouble.
I think that a reason the plot's been moving so slowly and with so little actual involvement on the part of the fans is this: the Creators just don't know where to take it at this point -- and the fans are not really in any better position to tell them where to take it than they are themselves. They've introduced too many plot threads, and moved the story too far beyond a point where those threads can be easily tied up at the moment -- and that creates a whole other problem given that the patience of the fanbase can only go so far. Again, most of us here are not accustomed to waiting so long for major developments and resolutions. Even with tv programs, there's still like 40 minutes of content per week, and something like 20 hours of content in a season. I doubt all the LG15 videos together are even half that long right now.
Sure, soap operas take forever to develop a plot line -- and never actually end (Creators, take note: do not go that route) -- but I somehwat doubt that the large majority of the fanbase are the soap opera viewers. Even those of us who like soap operas might not have time for tuning in at a specific time five days a week. Theoretically, the vlogging medium allows the Creators the ability to bypass that "tune in at a specific time" problem -- but they still need to avoid the pitfall of a never-ending story.
They need to remember that most of us became interested because we had an investment in the characters: we wanted to see a resolution for them. Even folks like Trainer who aren't really complaining right now still want to see the pay off, I'm sure (you do, don't you, Trainer?). If there's a constant impression that a resolution is nowhere in sight and might not ever be, you can probably watch a large portion of the fanbase migrate away to something that will have a payoff, even if that means going to tv or film and abandoning their support of this attempt at launching a new medium.
I realize I've made an absurdly long post here, so I'll try to end it soon, but I want to emphasise this point: pacing is a problem here. Sure there's a few folks like Trainer who aren't really complaining about the pace, but considering what a small percentage of the fanbase actually is interested enough to involve themselves in the forum... and then considering what a small percentage of those fans have expressed that they aren't bothered by the current pace or development style... this means that the show's in trouble.
Something major has to happen soon, either in terms of plot, or in terms of consistent interactivity with obvious relevance for the story -- or a lot of people are going to be ready to tune out. I'm an extremely patient person, but I'm also a person who wants a payoff. I know this is supposed to be more than a tv show, but I don't see anything attractive enough to involve myself in between videos beyond the occasional discussion (and most of these go in circles anyway). Considering that I'm one of the few fans who had enough interest to join up here on the forum, that probably says something about the rest of them out there who haven't even done that.
By the way, Trainer, I wanted to say something to you: your suggestion that we're being allowed into the Creators' sandbox (while it remains their sandbox) seems to kind of contradict your suggestion that the series is only as boring as fans let it be. While I disagree with that sentiment anyway given things like the pseudo-interactive chat on the 28th, I also think it needs to be remembered that so far the OpAphid/Tachyon side-story is only going to appeal to a small group of the relatively larger group who are dedicated enough to involve themselves in discussion -- this group itself only being a tiny subset of the fandom as a whole.
A fictional series has a wider appeal than forum discussion and trying to figure out obscure clues anyway. To a lot of people, the idea that they'd have to involve themselves in something that doesn't suit their fancy to begin with just to get something out of watching the series is going to be a turn off.
So, I'll stop here. I guess the summary of my post is essentially this: the Creators are in a major pickle here. They're attempting something that's going to be hard to pull off, if it can be pulled off. They're up to their necks in something that they could have never imagined would grow as it has. And they probably don't know how to handle it.
I guess my point is that they need a miracle, so I don't think we should be too rough on them. I apologize that I'm not the one to provide that miracle, and can only point out that it's needed. I hope they find it.
Dang! You're really getting into it, aren't you?
Of course I want a payoff - I'm just not as impatient as some others. I find that playing in the sandbox is kinda fun.
It's true that many don't involve themselves in the ARG. I'm not heavily involved myself - only to the extent that I enjoy making the connections. I leave the puzzle solving to the 'puzzle solvers' while I do my best to provide (I hope) some thoughtful analysis and keep my fellow B&D followers updated.
That's where the fun lies. Choosing your role in the adventure and executing it.
trainer101 wrote:Dang! You're really getting into it, aren't you?
'Fraid so. XD
Sorry for giving you such a long read.
trainer101 wrote:Of course I want a payoff - I'm just not as impatient as some others. I find that playing in the sandbox is kinda fun.
I thought so. Glad to have confirmation.
trainer101 wrote:It's true that many don't involve themselves in the ARG. I'm not heavily involved myself - only to the extent that I enjoy making the connections. I leave the puzzle solving to the 'puzzle solvers' while I do my best to provide (I hope) some thoughtful analysis and keep my fellow B&D followers updated.
Which you do a great job of, by the way. You're always Johnny on the Spot, it seems, ready with the latest news or the latest Illuminati conspiracy connection.
trainer101 wrote:That's where the fun lies. Choosing your role in the adventure and executing it.
I wonder what my role is. Yours we all know. If this is Conspiracy Theory, you're Mel Gibson.
Anyway, I think the problem is in large part that the majority of the fanbase prefer the role of observing... or they just don't see a place for themselves. I fear for the future of this project, I really do. I hope it's successful, but I don't know how to safeguard it myself, and I'm not necessarily in the position to -- as all suggestions must ultimately get Creator approval. Well, may they all get an All Seeing Eye on their foreheads and gain the insight on what to do.
Treefunk just gave me the first heart-stopping moment this show has provided me with in over a month.
This must be the great draw of these forums. The hopes that a Creator will happen accross your words, think they are worthwhile and incorperate them into the plot. My words do me no good if I keep them to myself, and if I type them here, maybe someone who can actually do something will think I have a point.
It's too much to hope for, always. I don't dare think about it.
By "random intellect" I mean Bree can be really, really smart when she decides to be. If she ever decides to stop playing around and grow a backbone, she is capible of figuring something out.
And I mean it, if our heros are in danger, they should be in danger. There needs to be something at stake.
"Too many cooks spoil the broth." What does the order want? What was the ceremony? What were the shots? What were the pills? What were the exercizes? What was Lucy's real purpose? Why were they following Daniel? Is that Watcher just a waste of time or is he going to do something someday? Who was that deacon? The ever famous who-was-cassie-and-what-happened-to-her? Will Daniel and Bree EVER get wise to the tracking device in her stuffed animals?
They need to gather threads together in a manner that answers some questions, leaving others to open Pandora's Boxes of deepening dred. Withholding too much leaves everyone lost.
And well said SharpI. The villian needs an objective and to start working towards it. And the story needs to stop waiting for our input (which results in wholey predictable plot developments) and start actually rubbing a few braincells together.
Hey Lurker, you trying to show me up on my own thread? Come over here and say that to my face!
However I disagree with you about the speed with which the story happens. I am not a patient person and, if anything, the faster medium of the internet encourages faster everything.
I don't mean every moment should be action packed. I mean the storyteller always has to be doing SOMETHING. If they are not advancing plot, they are building character. If they arn't doing that. they are setting up something, or foreshadowing something else. There always needs to be direction, they have to be going somewhere.
And treefunk, if you are right about the Watchers not being a threat, then is there any danger at all to Bree and Daniel? From Anyone?
Heck maybe this Order is the name of a club for some old guys without teeth who play bridge on sunday nights. Important people to be sure.
If we're supposed to dread, if we are supposed to fear, then we need something TO fear or it's pointless. If they are going to run away from something, have it be somehow meaningful.
So, I'll stop here. I guess the summary of my post is essentially this: the Creators are in a major pickle here. They're attempting something that's going to be hard to pull off, if it can be pulled off. They're up to their necks in something that they could have never imagined would grow as it has. And they probably don't know how to handle it.
The project has grown ultra successful if you measure that by eyeballs, media exposure, fandom, and other metrics associated with traditional media. What has eluded them so far is the financial rewards that even the trashiest of daytime soaps or horrid reality shows generate.
The result is the disaster of a plot, pacing, etc. that is nothing but a way to stall the production until they can figure out a way to make money. They started this as a way to break into the film industry, or so THEY claimed in interviews post-outing. Since then, they have become greedy in the hopes that they can capitalize on all the usual measures of success.
I am about as pro-capitalist as any, and have no problem with anyone making dinero. But it is so obvious that the financial aspects are driving the production at this point that it has just become silly.
As it is Monday am, I am sure that Amanda or one of the other production sockpuppets will be chiming in to refute all of the above complaints. They are SO predictable in this manner also...
<consideration of the ideas stated>As much I tend to be cheerleader for this production -reading the forums, supporting this endeavor, playing along, supporting viewer-created videos, etc. It is with resignation that I have to agree with some of the pacing issues, the unclear motives of the "antagonists," and the plot threads that never seem to be resolved. Hopefully, there is a major plan that will tie all this together. I would be excited for this production if there were some major "aha!" moments soon that made me feel bad for doubting this story. Since this production team is new and (mostly) inexperienced, I worry that there might not be. I do hate to be negative, and I don't condemn anyone for being a capitalist in our capitalist economy. However, I do agree with some of these ideas, and I'm glad this forum allows for this kind of discussion when it is thoughtfully presented. </consideration of the ideas stated>
<devilish teasing mode> I have an issue with personal attacks and complaining for the sake of complaining or being mean (which is why I have stopped reading the unofficial board, or as I call it in my own lexicon "rancor cove." Just kidding, members of the “coven.” I guess I am a just a "phoron" albeit with good grammar skills, an advanced degree from a prestigious university, various publishing credits for my creative writing, and a pretty good life.) <---this is just off-topic teasing toward the anchor cove folks a bit I know they can take it. </devilish teasing mode>
<sincere mode> I guess this is what happens when people (lg15 specifically) put their work out there and high expectations follow. I know that it is often difficult to meet these expectations. I hope the production team has some great ideas in the works. I do enjoy this series. I am an optimistic supporter and wish them the best. Like anything else in my life that is free, I'll keep playing along until playing along isn't fun anymore. I like fun and intrigue. So far, it has been great fun.</sincere mode>
That made me laugh, thanks. And yes, I can take teasing as well as the next monkey. As for personal attacks, not so much intended as perceived. A strong light shown behind the curtain is not meant to be an attack, just a calling out of a know modus operandi. I would note that I am the only member of that contingent complaining here, and the more eloquent posts above are not...This is just one monkey's opinion who stumbled on an articulate thread.
Any critique is based on a love of the story and characters that were created with such Care and Creativity. Both the characters and the story seem to be lost in the quest for financial success. More of a lament for what could have been than anything else...
I too remain optimistic that the creators can get the financial aspects under control and concentrate again on the characters and a semblance of a plot.
There is tremendous potential behind that curtain and I hope that they can realize this potential to its fullest.
Let's see if all this critiquing can be taken as "fan interaction" along with the various sub-genres that have been formed. I hope for the best!
I totally agree with the topic starter. When LG15 started it was new and revolutionary, and the story atleast did have something interesting about it (though it was more interesting in a sense that you'd get to see a 'real girl's and her daily rabblings).
Now, every story just progresses the story a really really really tiny bit. In the short video's we see no character development, and hardly a story development. To me, the characters have such little development that they appear 'plastic', and unbelievable superficial beings.
Bree, who acts as a child and never shows any of her past supposed intelligence which she supposedly had when she was at home.
And Daniel, who is always mad at bree for no reason at all, though I can imagine you'd get annoyed being around the plastic breetard all day.
And then there's gemma who basically does nothing in her vids except cite some random event in her life and tell bree and daniel that they are being watched and followed.
Ofcourse, there's jonas. Who as far as I know is nothing more than Eye candy. Because in every video he just once again cites some random event in his life, and says the same thin over and over again "Come to me bree and daniel, why don't you trust me"
So between all that, there is no real character development. Bree, supposedly the star of the show, is nothing more than a cute girl who talks to pluche toys. She has no character at all.
Lead characters shouldn't be superficial Paris Hiltonesque grey mouses? They should be interesting to 'explore' and interesting to follow.
Right now all we viewers want is a thorough character development of especially the lead character, Bree. But all we get is her talking to stuffed animals and her talking about how daniel ignores her.
THAT'S ALL THAT EVER HAPPENS IN THE SERIES.
Seriously, creators. You're ruining your own creation. Make it interesting or just quit it. You're making all the actors you've hired look really bad by making up such a terrible story for it. Fire your writer, and hire some new ones who know how to tell stories. There should be cliffhangers. There should be exitement. And most of it all.. there should be character development as to make the characters BELIEVABLE.
Right now all we watch is plastic superficial paris hilton clones. Is that really what you want for LG?
breetard [bree-tard] Adj. - a person who is stupid, obtuse, or ineffective in some way all while being plastic and having extremely limited depth of personality
](./images/smilies/eusa_wall.gif "Brick wall"){kind=small}
albeit with good grammar skills, an advanced degree from a prestigious university, various publishing credits for my creative writing, and a pretty good life.) <---this is just off-topic teasing toward the anchor cove folks a bit 
I know they can take it. </devilish teasing mode>