On the Jumping of Sharks--What LG15 is Doing Wrong

[MrsCop]

Guess what. Its a STORY, dumba$$.

That's as much as I read. For some reason, name-calling always cheapens the point. Ask any politician.

[DreamerM]

I like to think of it less as "swearing" and more as "emotional otomonopea". But that's just me.

If you're focusing on the media instead of the story you are trying to tell WITH that media then you are a dumb....well, what I said before.

If the shoe fits.

[Luv2Skydive]

I agree with all of this.......

After all these vids we still don't know anything about who or what they're running from. Bree is dropping IQ points by the second. She's almost comatose.

There hasn't been anything resembling a straight answer or confirmation of anything. The vagueness and running in circles chasing tails is sucking my soul dry!

[Lurker]

One thing everyone in this thread knows but has kinda forgot to mention: I don't think lonelygirl15 would be what it is if Jessica Lee Rose wasn't cast as the main character. It's HER that got all of us hooked. We just really want the character she is playing to develop as she should, not stay the same.

It certainly wouldn't be the same without her, no. I can't say that it was just her that got me hooked, though. It was more the Daniel-Bree combo that did it. The Bree solo vids I have never been especially fond of, but the dynamic of Bree and Daniel has always been great to me. The first video I saw was "The Danielbeast," and that's what got me hooked.

Guess what. Its a STORY, dumba$$. If you can look past the revoutionary media and just concentrate on telling your story the best way you can, then you are worth my time. If you can take your fiction seriously, then we can do business. If you can't then it's time for you to go do something else.

While I agree with the sentiment regarding the medium, I think it could have done with a better delivery. You may have just insulted a large number of people here unnecessarily and unfairly.

I understand people think I was too harsh on Holly. Those people are wrong.

Oh, this can't be good...

It is people like holly who are responsible for a 6th Rocky movie being greenlit, or a 4th American Pie sequel. It's people like her who keep sitcoms being syndicated YEARS after thier scripts turn into crap. She's the reason execs dump thier resources into properties far, far past thier prime instead of axing those tired old shows and seeking out something new and fresh to entertain us with.

Nope, not good at all.

The question I have to ask you, DreamerM, is this: what's inherently wrong with Holly or other people enjoying those things? I admit that I might often find myself disappointed in consumers who don't demand higher quality, but if they enjoy something of lower quality, I don't see anything wrong with that -- even if I personally don't see any redeeming element in it myself. It's their money and their time to spend as they please after all.

Of course, even the idea of what is quality is subjective. Personally, I don't see most of what Hollywood puts out as quality. Half of it's rehashed, tired old cliches in a new package. However, I would not be at all surprised if for some people, the search for quality was finding which of those titles could use those hashed and rehashed elements to best effect. Again, there's no accounting for taste.

the way by which you tell the story is always second to the story being told. Stop whinning about the growing pains and start taking the story seriously in and of itself and THEN we can do business.

That's not fair, Dreamer. To some people, the story is most important, while to others, how the story's told is most important. To others, both the story and how it's told are equally important. There are so many elements to analyze and enjoy, especially in a visual storytelling medium, and no one can say that any are inherently more important as a universal truth. Different people appreciate different things and for different reasons -- and neither you nor I nor they can justifiably say that anyone else is in the wrong.

What's more... if the studios behind those productions that you or I personally find vapid didn't get money off of those... would they have enough money to provide the productions that we do appreciate?

Think about it. They're just trying to make money, and if the people are willing to give them money and enjoy it... then everybody wins. Including you and me, because that studio's going to have more money now to pour into a masterpiece later.

[trainer101]

Dreamer, you started with some valid points but your rants have rapidly deteriorated into personal attacks on those who don’t agree with everything you say.

You got a couple of positive nods from some readers and it seems to have expanded your head – considerably. Like so many celebrities, you’ve begun to believe your own hype. You are perilously close to becoming a parody of the person who posted an original and intelligent argument.

Engaging in flame wars will not benefit your case. Stick to intelligent social discourse.

[SharpI]

Dreamer, I must agree with Trainer and Lurker and others above. I mean, whoa.

LG15 is a story, and there are many ways of telling a story. People who work in mass media know that there is no way of telling a story that makes everybody happy. Viewers gravitate toward stories told "their" way and away from those told in ways they can't abide.

I myself am at peace with LG15 these days. It came about very simply: I decided to assume for five minutes that Bree is as intelligent as she ever was, and so is Daniel. And the story righted itself. I don't know why Bree would rather be homeless than bend to the Order, but if I begin to think of reasons why, I can come up with many. I don't know why Daniel didn't sell his car instead of parking it, but of course there are many possible reasons for this too. The problem was not the story, it was how I wanted it fed to me.

[curiousGeorge]

Well now, I stopped by to see the status of the latest “I Breally Hate the Plot” thread and it has swerved, dived, jigged, and resurfaced with a little more venom and a little less gray matter.

I still stand by my assertion that this is one of the more intelligent and thoughtful threads written here at the phorum. I will newly assert that the emotions are running high because of a tremendous passion for the subject. Flame wars for the sake of flames? I don’t think so. I think you have a variance of personalities passionate about all things LonelyGirl.

Are some fairly simplistic, like Holly’s? Yes, but perhaps she is a less demanding consumer of media than most. I think it was kind of silly of her to respond with such simple platitudes amidst a fairly well thought out discussion, but at least she did not insult anyone.

I on the other hand, will fairly readily resort to personal insult. Monkeys tend to throw feces when agitated, so I guess insults are relative.

So we move forward.

Perhaps what we are really seeing here is a fragmentation of the audience. The folks who love to solve the puzzles and care little for the plot and character development seem to be a major part of the newer audience. Would they even bother to read a thread in this section? Do they even care about dangling plot threads and gross continuity errors? Do they care if Bree mindlessly babbles to P. Monkey in a squatter’s dump or appreciate the wonderful acting of Yousef?

What seems like an eternity ago, Brian Fleming posted a blog about LG15 (link below) in which the premise was:

It's not about the girl. It's about the game.

Let’s substitute the words “plot” or “character development” for “girl” shall we. If the teeming masses are primarily interested in the ARG type elements and indeed are the target demographic, then the series is plugging on full speed ahead with no problems.

But then, maybe it is about the interaction? Well we know that this is problematic at best and fodder for another litany of rants. Reference the Bree Chat Disaster.

But then, maybe it IS about the girl. And the boy. That is one girl and one boy. Oh wait. Then it is about two boys and two girls. No wait, it is about Lucy, No wait it is about Thelema. Strike that, it is NOT about a religion. It is an order. Oh sorry, I meant THE ORDER. Complete with non-threatening Watchers (Gyles?). So now it is all about Buffy. Well I always liked her anyway…

The whole plot has become absurd.

Maybe it is about all of the above, but NONE of it is being done very well. The ARG is a possible exception that I admittedly find tedious and uninteresting. Perhaps that is where they are succeeding.

BUT, the many interviews I have seen and read with the creators (still small c for those of you in Rio Linda) always seem to focus on STORYTELLING. I know that they did not hang the “new art form” label on themselves, but they certainly are trying to milk this for all it is worth. This was never billed as a “game”, but that is (perhaps) the only place that it is succeeding. Perhaps that will be the end result of this, a way to play a game that is done with video interludes. (I need some Q-Ludes after all this typing!)

Bottom line for me: It has always been about the characters and the story. Perhaps that is why I am so disenchanted and unhappy with the current plot.

It stinks.

Reference:

http://www.slumdance.com/blogs/brian_fl ... 02292.html

[DreamerM]

Since when am I a celebratie...Ur, Celebrat....famous person? I kid about having a big ego. Well, I do have a big ego, but I joke about it anyway. Does that make sense?....

Let me make an official statement: I have no delusions of grandiur, I am mearly poking fun at myself and I certainly don't REALLY think I deserve a fanclub. I was kidding.

I'll say this right here and now: I did not mean to offend anyone. Heaven forbid I bear the title of flamer. If I have a problem with things, I try to expain and support that negative opinion. I try to have a reason for everything I do.

What I said about Holly I said not because I have a problem with her, personally, or even with her liking the way the story is currently going. She can like anything she wants to like. What I had a problem with was her saying "I have always liked this and always will," implying that she would blindly continue to consume the LG15 product regardless of it's quality.

It is those who continue to consume a product out of nostalgia or force of habit, despite the fact that product is, itself, not very good anymore that I have a problem with. It is that mentality I was attacking, not Holly as a person.

And what I said about concentrating on the story as opposed to how it's being told...I mean, stop concentrating on the medium itself and start thinking about what that media contains. When you read a book, you are more interested in the book's content then the fact that it's a book, with pages and binding and a cover, right?

I'm saying don't use "it's a new media" as an excuse to tell a sub-par story. Don't pay so much attention to the technicalities of creating a show that you let that show's quality suffer.

I sure didn't think I was launching personal attacks. I hope if I do decide to attack someone personally, there won't be any doubt about who or why. I make it a point that the objects of my wrath know exactly who they are. No one here on this board has done anything warrent my rage, no one has flamed ME, I hope I haven't made any enemies yet, I just got here!

I have a bad habit of saying whatever I think of and letting the chips fall where they may. I don't own any kid gloves and my inner-censor has been on sabatical since 1995. I do believe in my opinions quite strongly, but I try to give myself reason to. If some of the things I say are blunt or crass then that's shame-on-me, but I gotta say what I think.

I know people can disagree with me without warrenting flaming. I have never mindlessly flamed someone in my entire online life. Give me a little credit: I may be a snobby know-it-all, but I'm not THAT deeply small-mindedly self-absorbed that I take personal offense at being disagreed with.

If you think I'm wrong tell me so and why you think so. We can work from there.

We appologize for the inconvenience.

[milowent]

If there is any question that LG15 is really supposed to be about the STORY, let's recall the legendary first post of the Creators (9/7/06)
http://www.lonelygirl15.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=36

To Our Incredible Fans,

.... Our intention from the outset has been to tell a story-- A story that could only be told using the medium of video blogs and the distribution power of the internet. A story that is interactive and constantly evolving with the audience.

... We are just like you. A few people who love good stories. We hope that you will join us in the continuing story of Lonelygirl15, ...

It is about the story. Now, whether the sidebar ARG element is succeeding or not, I cannot say. Its clearly a niche market that has dedicated fans -- as Cassieiswatching showed us.

[Broken Kid]

Thank you, Lurker. Your posts are always thoughtful, insightful, and impeccably fair. I think many of the others - who feel differently or the same as I - can learn a lot from your lengthy but well-worded posts. I think you managed to put into perspective the posts from others who may agree with you in theory but still feel the need to offend others or take an aggressive, demanding tone.

[trash180]

<snip>

That's not fair, Dreamer. To some people, the story is most important, while to others, how the story's told is most important. To others, both the story and how it's told are equally important. There are so many elements to analyze and enjoy, especially in a visual storytelling medium, and no one can say that any are inherently more important as a universal truth. Different people appreciate different things and for different reasons -- and neither you nor I nor they can justifiably say that anyone else is in the wrong.

What's more... if the studios behind those productions that you or I personally find vapid didn't get money off of those... would they have enough money to provide the productions that we do appreciate?

Think about it. They're just trying to make money, and if the people are willing to give them money and enjoy it... then everybody wins. Including you and me, because that studio's going to have more money now to pour into a masterpiece later.

I don't think so. Throwing money at sub-par content is rewarded with more sub-par content. Just because they have the money doesn't mean they will spend it wisely. It happens repeatedly and endlessly in mainstream media and we can't expect this to be different. We need to monetarily support worthwhile productions (by our own individual standards) and hope that more of the same quality will follow.

I arrived late to this party, but there is plenty here that needed to be said. Bravo Dreamy, Lurker, Trainer, Franker Cove People...

and Luv2Skydive!

I agree with all of this.......

After all these vids we still don't know anything about who or what they're running from. Bree is dropping IQ points by the second. She's almost comatose.

There hasn't been anything resembling a straight answer or confirmation of anything. The vagueness and running in circles chasing tails is sucking my soul dry!

...and that's where it's at for many people. We want to invest our money, emotions, intellect, time, creativity and hearts in this series. It's just that extending ourselves becomes masochistic after getting smacked down too many times. We don't want to be played the fool. The more we get "clues", and dangling plot threads that lead to nowhere, the more we have to believe that there was never anything there in the first place. I can get with adding our depth, but the big number one mystery that put them on the map storywise, Crowley, has disappeared. Is it too much to hope that something as big as that gets explained eventually? Is there anything that will lead us to believe they are going to tie any of this stuff up? So far, they only seem to move on without cleaning up the mess they made.

[Lurker]

Thank you, Lurker. Your posts are always thoughtful, insightful, and impeccably fair. I think many of the others - who feel differently or the same as I - can learn a lot from your lengthy but well-worded posts. I think you managed to put into perspective the posts from others who may agree with you in theory but still feel the need to offend others or take an aggressive, demanding tone.

Thanks for those nice words, BK. You're very welcome.

I don't think so. Throwing money at sub-par content is rewarded with more sub-par content. Just because they have the money doesn't mean they will spend it wisely. It happens repeatedly and endlessly in mainstream media and we can't expect this to be different.

While it's certainly to be expected that more sub-par material would emerge later, that's really just "refilling the well" the way I see it (which is to say they've got to dish out some easy revenue draw once in a while). Besides, for every movie that comes out, there's always someone who likes it. Well, maybe not Batman & Robin, but every other movie.

Anyway, my point with that was this: studios produce lots of different films. Some of them beautiful works of entertainment that we get a kick out of calling "a work of art"... and some of them utter crap that we feel we're still being too generous to refer to as utter crap.

Example being Walt Disney Pictures and their theme park films. They gave us The Country Bears and The Haunted Mansion, yes... but they also gave us Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl. Granted, they followed that up with Dead Man's Chest which I don't think could have been more disappointing if it had been The Country Bears 2: We Suck Even More, but that's getting off the subject.

We need to monetarily support worthwhile productions (by our own individual standards) and hope that more of the same quality will follow.

And that's precisely what will happen if we leave one another to our own devices of watching what we individually enjoy. You and I will pass on American Pie Presents: The Naked Mile, but enjoy the next Gladiator-like film to come along.

I can get with adding our depth, but the big number one mystery that put them on the map storywise, Crowley, has disappeared. Is it too much to hope that something as big as that gets explained eventually?

I think they're probably worried about offending or insulting anyone with that angle. That's why it was dropped, I thought?

[JustAnotherLonelyGirl.]

While I feel lengthy and thoughtful posts are absolutely fantastic, I object to anyone belittling another because of the simplicity of their response.

Sometimes, short and sweet is the best way to go. In fact, you'll likely have a broader audience if you cut to the chase rather than rambling on about this and that and why and how and who and what.

(Much like I tend to do...)

If Holly likes the show, and believes she always will like the show, she has every right to say so without being shot down as a "blind foolish fan" who is in part responsible for "stale entertainment." To say that "people like Holly" have caused this is entirely uncalled for. As we all know quite well, you have no idea what kind of "people" are like Holly. You have no idea what her reasons behind her fondness of the show are. It would have been much more productive to ask why, if you really cared. If you don't like being disagreed with, don't share your opinions.

Moving on, I still very much agree with everything DreamerM has said so far. And curiousGeorge, awesome post. to both of you!

[DreamerM]

It's not that I don't like being disagreed with, in fact most I know some fine people with whom I disagree about every issue under the sun.

It's that Holly's response implied blind consumption of everything LG15, and blind consumption of anything is a bad idea in my book.

Support only that which is quality. This provides insentive for creators to create more quality content.

I agree with the short post thing to, which is why this one is short. Yay.

[Luv2Skydive]

...and that's where it's at for many people. We want to invest our money, emotions, intellect, time, creativity and hearts in this series. It's just that extending ourselves becomes masochistic after getting smacked down too many times. We don't want to be played the fool. The more we get "clues", and dangling plot threads that lead to nowhere, the more we have to believe that there was never anything there in the first place. I can get with adding our depth, but the big number one mystery that put them on the map storywise, Crowley, has disappeared. Is it too much to hope that something as big as that gets explained eventually? Is there anything that will lead us to believe they are going to tie any of this stuff up? So far, they only seem to move on without cleaning up the mess they made.[/quote]

Agreed and I've posted elsewhere in the past about things that are obviously important in vids that just disappear and are never explained. When that happens, the vids lose credibility with me. I should know by now that research and assumptions is futile when the Creators can add/delete anything they want at any time and don't feel the need to come with an explanation.