On the Jumping of Sharks--What LG15 is Doing Wrong

[DreamerM]

Creativity in this case would have been to rewrite the script so that Jonas showed off something you *do* have. What sprung to my mind was: if he tried calling his friends to vouch for him... only he dials and dials but no one picks up. Might have had a funny moment, and maybe a little sad. Maybe kind of dull, but maybe no duller than closed doors?

Good thought, SharpI. That would definately have been much more interesting then what se saw, plus it would have further established Jonas as a male Bree in terms of his isolation and his retreat into a fantasy world as a substitute for real companionship.

However, he is unlike bree in that his isolation is largely self-imposed.

I also agree at least one person should do everything in one take. Probably not Jonas, since he's taught himself editing, but it wouldn't be out of character for Gemma.

The editing of her videos has always been odd: How does she know how to time-lapse, close up, synchonize music and all that?

And... And just once let's have someone walk into some bad lighting, huh? That sort of warm red sheen everything gets when you record via. webcam at night would go a long way for believability. Too much to ask for?

[smashing]

Miles,

While this is a new medium, and it's good to experiment, I think people's attention spans have limits regardless of the format.
You've been telling basically one story without much resolution for 2 hours and 55 minutes. If this were a movie, some of the audience would have left the theatre and others would be shifting uncomfortably in their seats, and that's what has happened in a manner of speaking.
In a TV series, each half-hour or hour episode has a self contained story, and any story arc that lasts the life of the show is secondary.
You have two choices to keep audience interest. 1) wrap up this "movie" and move on to another one either with these characters or completely different ones or 2) Make the "Order" stuff the long term story arc of the series, and introduce short, dramatic stories that are resolved within a few episodes shifting the focus away from the longer story.
Either way you gotta give us resolution, and it can't be at the end of a 7 hour movie.

Sincerely,
smashing

[stuart2004]

wow I am sure the Creaters love you telling them how to run their show.....

Dude, I made a whole thread to talk about everything they are doing wrong. I'm sure they love me a whole lot for assuming I know how to fix their cracking product and for saying things like "concentrate on te story" and "pick up the dangling plot threads" like they are easy. Oh well. So it goes.

Plus I don't care how they run thier show. I'm more worried about how they write their show. Miles said they had problems "finding the correct pacing." Believe me, if you know where your story is going, the pacing happens without you paying any attention to it.

Earlier in the thread, someone accused me of hating the show. If I hated the show, I wouldn't have gone through the trouble of registering and posting all the ways I think it can be fixed. I would have simply left the site and never come back.

Thank you vanillaflava for getting us back on topic. I think your comments are right on the money (except the one about Yosef being the one thing holding this show together.) He's a fine actor, but he is not the one thing holding this show together. And while it's true Daniel is the ONE character on this show who is not a totall bubblehead, the fact that he has been so quick to forget how scared he was of the Order kind of detracts from our empathy for him, since we remember, even if he doesn't, how creepy all the stuff that was going on was.

RIGHT OR WRONG... I just wanted to apologize I was having a pissy time and being a Twat............ sorry for being rude... I just got tired of everyone say how bad it is (and yes I know you responded to what they were asking but your comment was a rarity among tons of crap spewed out by whining masses)......Anyway SORRY

[voyboy]

Some really good points made. But it seems to me that too many of you have forgotten the best part.

Not knowing.

I think they are aware of loose ends. And they are too smart to dismiss them. We are just going to have to wait till its time.

[Ennovi]

wow. I just read this thread and it is very insightful. Thanks miles, for taking the time to respond so nicely. The show, in my opinion, has been improving. I think the increase in in-character interaction is great! I hope you get the money and the deals you need to keep it going. I hope to see more twists and amazing things.

Now we know why Jonas did not show the rooms. I'm relieved.

[DreamerM]

I feel for thier situation, I really do.

But I agree with SharpI (again! That's twice! Will wonders never stop?!)

If you don't have the funding for a certain video, then maybe you need to come up with something else, something that makes the same point but can still be shot with what you have.

I realize there is a sizable gap right now between what the creators would LIKE the show to be, were they given everything they asked for, and what the show actually IS right now.

Yes money allows them to "fully express thier creativity." Shooting with budget restrictions is not impossible, it just requires even MORE creativity.

And for the record:

The whole "we'll let the internet deside" deccable....from Daniel's out-of-character cheesy heartfelt "you are the only person (people?) I trust" to bree's ernest "he passedthe test!" the whole thing brought one sentance to mind:

"The illusion of control."

The outcome was never in doubt. Bree HAS to go to Jonas or the plot will continue languishing in the dumpster.

Yet we feel 'involved,' like we actually made a difference. We didn't.

It was a pseudo-choice. It was at least a way to get more people onto the forums, but that's all. It made me sad.

[anna]

Bree going to Jonas' and Daniel wanting to go home is definitely some action. It's the first time Bree and Daniel have gone different ways and are not together anymore.

[DreamerM]

I think that forced seperation counted, when her parents wouldn't let him come over.

I'm glad SOMETHING happened. And at least it was dramatic. You can tell it was dramatic because it involved yelling. Yelling is dramatic.

Even if it was predictable and not very interesting.

[Spiletta42]

Miles,

I'm an admirer of what you've done, warts and all. You've created something unique, and I applaud that. As for the issue of pacing -- that's hard in conventional fiction, let alone what you're attempting here.

Remember, fans only whine after you've won their hearts, so as long as your intentions remain as they are now, you'll maintain your audience.

I arrived just weeks ago as a huge cynic, but will now remain as a loyal fan.

[Lurker]

And for the record:

The whole "we'll let the internet deside" deccable....from Daniel's out-of-character cheesy heartfelt "you are the only person (people?) I trust" to bree's ernest "he passedthe test!" the whole thing brought one sentance to mind:

"The illusion of control."

The outcome was never in doubt. Bree HAS to go to Jonas or the plot will continue languishing in the dumpster.

Yet we feel 'involved,' like we actually made a difference. We didn't.

It was a pseudo-choice. It was at least a way to get more people onto the forums, but that's all. It made me sad.

I thought the same thing. It was obvious the way things were going to go -- because the Creators wanted it to go that way. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. As I told the Creators earlier in this thread, if they know where the story needs to go, they should take it there, regardless of what the viewers are suggesting.

I even suggested that they completely take the reigns away from the viewers for a while if necessary. However, pseudo-interactivity is not the way to go about this. Miles, just make it obvious that you guys are at the helm.

This whole thing with Holly "deciding" was just like the chat on Nov. 28th. I called that a "pseudo-interactive event" then and that's what this was too. The outcome was never in doubt, nor was the purpose behind the chat or this "choice" of Holly's. The chat was for getting Jonas to make his pitch to Bree under the guise of an interactive environment. The "forum choice" was intended to get the forum's "permission" for Bree to go to Jonas', under the illusion that the fans were the deciding factor in that scenario.

Again, I have absolutely no problem with you guys taking control of this thing, and I believe that you guys excercising more control would probably work wonders for the story -- but this illusion of control with the pseudo-interactivity is crass and even seems a little insulting to the forum intelligence, I think.

No offense intended. I'm just giving you my guys my honest opinion of it.

Of course, if I'm way off base and you guys would have completely changed what you obviously wanted to do if (despite all probability) Holly had chosen to not trust Jonas and the majority of people who voted in the poll had voted not to trust him... well, then you have my apologies. But I also kind of feel like steps were taken to make it unlikely that things would have gone that way.

[EliCash]

Yet we feel 'involved,' like we actually made a difference. We didn't.

It was a pseudo-choice. It was at least a way to get more people onto the forums, but that's all. It made me sad.

Sorry, but this stuff about a pseudo-choice is complete bullshit. The Creators said IN THIS VERY THREAD that this isn't going to be "choose your own adventure." Had they done exactly what a poll on this forum said, that's exactly what it would have been.

And that would have been a shame, because we expect much more out of them than that. And they delivered.

Part of the story was the characters talking to the forum. And part of the story is the character of Daniel rejecting the advice we gave him. That tells us something about how stubborn he is as a character. That's not a flaw by the Creators.

Interactive doesn't mean they do what we say any more than it means we do what they say. Interactive means just that -- we interact. They aren't forced to follow our commands because they're supposed to be portraying REAL PEOPLE. And real people don't follow commands.

This isn't pseudo-interactive. It would have only been pseudo-interactive if they followed every command we made.

[Lurker]

Yet we feel 'involved,' like we actually made a difference. We didn't.

It was a pseudo-choice. It was at least a way to get more people onto the forums, but that's all. It made me sad.

Sorry, but this stuff about a pseudo-choice is complete bullshit. The Creators said IN THIS VERY THREAD that this isn't going to be "choose your own adventure." Had they done exactly what a poll on this forum said, that's exactly what it would have been.

Which brings up the question of "Why bother to pretend its like that?"

Part of the story was the characters talking to the forum.

One can easily include the fictional forum of the fictional world and get the same effect in that case. It would never be necessary, then, to give the impression that the real forum was significant to the event.

And part of the story is the character of Daniel rejecting the advice we gave him. That tells us something about how stubborn he is as a character. That's not a flaw by the Creators.

Couldn't he have rejected the advice of the fictional forum members just as easily? In any case, that's not what I was talking about. What I was suggesting is that the whole approval of going to Jonas' idea was pseudo-interactive, not that D&B's responses to the situation were.

Interactive doesn't mean they do what we say any more than it means we do what they say. Interactive means just that -- we interact. They aren't forced to follow our commands because they're supposed to be portraying REAL PEOPLE. And real people don't follow commands.

The way that you know interactive storytelling is actually interactive storytelling is because the suggestions (call them "commands" if you prefer) of the audience actually have an impact on what follows. If you look at the chat from Nov. 28th, what effect did the audience have there? Absolutely none. They weren't even needed. Same thing here. We all knew where the Creators wanted things to go -- they could have simply taken things in this direction without the idea of a poll the same way they did with one.

To put it another way, as many of us read/watch a story, we're shouting suggestions or commands to the characters involved, yet we might as well not being doing so for all the difference it makes. That's essentially what's going on with the two situations I've brought up.

Again, I'm not saying that's bad. Were it me, I'd do away with the idea of this being an interactive thing anyway -- but it's not me, and I realize that at least giving the impression that we're important is a goal of the Creators.

This isn't pseudo-interactive. It would have only been pseudo-interactive if they followed every command we made.

I think seeing them actually respond to what is obviously directly from us would indicate the opposite. When we have absolutely no impact and there's no obvious relevance of any sort, it might as well be the fictional forum under discussion. Does that make sense?

[bakedbree]

Thank you Miles for filling us in on the inner workings of LG15. It is so apparent how much you and the other creators care about continuing to produce a quality show. I for one am totally involved in and enjoying LG15 - I do not expect perfection. LG15 is consistently intelligent and enjoyable - and very addicting! As an independent artist I am amazed at the fact that you have kept it all together considering the overwhelming response of the fans. Thank you, thank you, thank you creators!!!

[EliCash]

Which brings up the question of "Why bother to pretend its like that?"

They didn't. Only days before the poll they said that this wasn't going to be "Choose your own adventure."

One can easily include the fictional forum of the fictional world and get the same effect in that case. It would never be necessary, then, to give the impression that the real forum was significant to the event.

But that would be fictional interactivity. I prefer the real thing, which is what we got (which I'll explain later in this post).

The way that you know interactive storytelling is actually interactive storytelling is because the suggestions (call them "commands" if you prefer) of the audience actually have an impact on what follows.

THEY DID have an impact on what follows here. Did you not see Daniel actively rejecting what the majority told him to do? If not, you should watch the video again. It's all there. That's part of the story! I don't get why you don't see this. It would be contrary to Daniel's stubborn character to simply ignore what he thinks he should do based on a poll.

(If you want to argue it was outside of his character to have a poll in the first place, however, then I might agree. But that's a completely different argument.)

And by the way, my use of the word "commands" was to suggest what the poll was NOT. If it WAS "Choose your own adventure," THEN it'd be a command. That's my point. You want them to be commands, rather than actual interaction that real characters respond to in ways keeping with their character.

If you look at the chat from Nov. 28th, what effect did the audience have there? Absolutely none. They weren't even needed.

I agree the chat was ridiculous. I blame a lack of preparing for the event, along with technical problems. Next time, I'd imagine, it will be much better. However, I think this poll stuff is completely different. And it resulted in a fantastic video the LG community has, by huge margins, enjoyed.

To put it another way, as many of us read/watch a story, we're shouting suggestions or commands to the characters involved, yet we might as well not being doing so for all the difference it makes.

We certainly can disagree on whether it made a "difference," but I have a different standard. That's one of interactivity. There's no denying this was actual, real interaction. That wouldn't be the case with the examples you cited.

I would actually push for it to make more of a "difference" with the direction of the plot -- but not TOO much more. It's better for them to start small than big on this, in my opinion.

By the way, as far as this "fictional forum" stuff, it wouldn't work realistically, anyway. They would have to set up a fake forum with fake people posting and make fake polls. Why not just use our own forum, and allow us to respond? Then they can work our response into how the characters would respond as is appropriate?

Do you really think it would have been in Daniel's character to obey the results of the poll?

Bree ignored Gemma's advice, as well. Are you suggesting that they didn't interact in the story? You would have to, since she didn't make "a difference."

Edit: I just want to point out that part of LG is the OpAphid stuff, and there's no mistaking how incredibly interactive THAT is.

[platypusrex256]

Writers, we already know she's an adorable kitten, but your plot has moved beyond that. It's time to let her be an actual PERSON.

LMAO. i have a theory that this is essential to the story. the order will stop following bree and daniel once bree develops a personality of her own. meanwhile, the watchers are actualy just a bunch of pedaphilic horn dogs. they're also getting off on daniel. those sickos!

Also, the fact bree and Daniel continue to ignore the way too obvious fact that the tracking devices are inside her stuffed animals, despite the fact that they SUPPOSEDLY check this site and every third comment is "check the stuffed animals" is suspension of disbelief at it's worst.

this is so true! personaly, i give them the benefit of the doubt that they checked the hole and couldn't find anything. but they should atleast tell us! my theory is that the tracking device is virtualy invisible. besides, they'll prbably have to tear owen completley apart inorder to find the device. the hole is in his butt but the device might have found its way to his nose. who knows? LMAO