Flame Wars

[Killthesmiley]

Now...AGAIN...continue to attack me...that's your pergoative, but this thread is NOT about what happend on Friday.

i'm going to have to agree here..
sphinx and bethy, if you have more discussion, please take it to PM, its a bit disruptive to discussion.

[Killthesmiley]

To me, a troll is anyone who trys to fan the fires and start a fight. This includes, at different times mind you (and don't kill me people) Shinx...

Wow, to be included in this group is giggle worthy.

Tiger I have much respect for you, but responding to a flame is quite different than trolling imo.

I admit to one post regarding the "G" word that was, in my confusion of threads being posted all over and disappearing at the time, and an admitted not reading the complete original post, as a fanning of the fires.
I also posted an apology for it.

I stand by everything else I've written. Funny how a couple of days of active debate and defense of something important to me lumps me in with legends such as these.

I agree Sphinx that responding is not trolling.. rsponding is feeding the troll...

OR sometimes things are misread and misunderstood and you become the troll...

either way, both sides are right and wrong.

[tigerlilylynn]

To me, a troll is anyone who trys to fan the fires and start a fight. This includes, at different times mind you (and don't kill me people) Shinx...

Wow, to be included in this group is giggle worthy.

Tiger I have much respect for you, but responding to a flame is quite different than trolling imo.

I admit to one post regarding the "G" word that was, in my confusion of threads being posted all over and disappearing at the time, and an admitted not reading the complete original post, as a fanning of the fires.
I also posted an apology for it.

I stand by everything else I've written. Funny how a couple of days of active debate and defense of something important to me lumps me in with legends such as these.

;p I was going with name recognition. Basically what my point is is this "Don't be a wanker".

Internet drama sucks. No one wins...ever. If all the ops get bounced and all the flammers get banned for one moment of RAWR then we lose the rest of their input when there head his properly north of their ass. My suggestion is that we self-moderate in this way. If someone isn't debating but fighting, ignore them. If you engage them you are contributing to the growing problem. This goes for all of us, myself included. I fed the flames before and I'll prolly have bad days in the future. My point in including you is that you know full well Bethy will not ever think any differently so all you accomplish is a sore wrist...from typing. So I say we all walk away if 1) we are too angry to play nice or 2) we know they won't play nice.

[sphinx]

I agree Sphinx that responding is not trolling.. rsponding is feeding the troll...

True, but when the original flame is causing a direct negative affect on the game... well let's just say sometimes venting is a healthy thing.

[Luminous]

To me, a troll is anyone who trys to fan the fires and start a fight. This includes, at different times mind you (and don't kill me people) Shinx...

If I was deliberately trying to start a fight, I'd be alot more effective about it than I am. I wouldn't be containing my comments to this thread, which is the designated place for discussing these issues right now.

[tigerlilylynn]

To me, a troll is anyone who trys to fan the fires and start a fight. This includes, at different times mind you (and don't kill me people) Shinx...

If I was deliberately trying to start a fight, I'd be alot more effective about it than I am. I wouldn't be containing my comments to this thread, which is the designated place for discussing these issues right now.

Which is, again, why I did not include you. You are being hella-civil and that's a glorious thing given all that crap exploding to your left and right. ^_^

The comment was never a OMG YOU ALL SUXXOR!!!1!! but a Geez, that guy made a thread called "what's wrong with you people?!" and rather than turn the other cheek people spazed. Shame on all sides of that "debate".

[itsreallyreal]

I agree Sphinx that responding is not trolling.. rsponding is feeding the troll...

True, but when the original flame is causing a direct negative affect on the game... well let's just say sometimes venting is a healthy thing.

HAHAhahahaha... I won't argue that!...

I was just supporting Lilly's point is all...

I have a whole other forum where I "Vent" aka Talk trash on some of the users here that have upset me... It's great and it doesn;t ruine my time here...

Another thing to avoid is dragging Drama from one thread into another... Just because we are arguing in General doesn't mean we have to argue in Plot... Not saying anyone has... just reinforcing the whole "Self MOD" thing...

One thing I WILL say though...

If the MOD's and ADMIN are interested in forum growth then this current culture is counter productive...

If you are TOO loyal to the people that were there when it began it will become their playhouse and no one will want to ever come around and stay...

If you moderate a balance and creat an equal playing field with out cencoring every little thing then you can grow because the newbs will feel welcomed...

Some times the "Business as Usual" has to change in order for growth to take place. And when there is change there is ALWAYS resistance and even fall out...

[sphinx]

Now...AGAIN...continue to attack me...that's your pergoative, but this thread is NOT about what happend on Friday.

i'm going to have to agree here..
sphinx and bethy, if you have more discussion, please take it to PM, its a bit disruptive to discussion.

Didn't bring it up.<shrugs>
Also fail to see how a difference of perspective, and therefore, of opinion constitutes a "personal attack".

And have no interest in PMs at all please and thank you very very much.

[Luminous]

Back to what I think we've come to so far:

It would be good to keep an initiation thread going where newbs can be safely initiated without fearing for their lives

We all want solid rules that are enforced consistently.

Everyone is human. We all make mistakes.

[bethy]

If they couldn't respond to the bait with a calm argument then they shouldn't respond and if they know the person they are debating with will NEVER surrender the "higher ground" then they shouldn't try to fight them for it becuase it's most likely a garbage heap by the time you "win".

This I agree with. I've never denied that I'm guilty of this on occasion. BUT, there's a big difference between myself...and the admins/mods who have power.

My beef is that there will always be users who do this...and your list was just of users. But when moderstors do it, they lose their authoritative stance which get users even more irate, confused, irritated, etc. They lose any respect they may have had and they look like even bigger bullies.

[Killthesmiley]

If they couldn't respond to the bait with a calm argument then they shouldn't respond and if they know the person they are debating with will NEVER surrender the "higher ground" then they shouldn't try to fight them for it becuase it's most likely a garbage heap by the time you "win".

This I agree with. I've never denied that I'm guilty of this on occasion. BUT, there's a big difference between myself...and the admins/mods who have power.

My beef is that there will always be users who do this...and your list was just of users. But when moderstors do it, they lose their authoritative stance which get users even more irate, confused, irritated, etc. They lose any respect they may have had and they look like even bigger bullies.

i think we need to drop the abusive moderator discussion and go back to suggestions on productivity and how to enhance it.

While I agree with self-moderation, you can only expect that to a certain level. And I really feel that moderators need to step their game up and realize that there is a problem with not only "flamers" and the way they put the policy into effect and when.

[tigerlilylynn]

If they couldn't respond to the bait with a calm argument then they shouldn't respond and if they know the person they are debating with will NEVER surrender the "higher ground" then they shouldn't try to fight them for it becuase it's most likely a garbage heap by the time you "win".

This I agree with. I've never denied that I'm guilty of this on occasion. BUT, there's a big difference between myself...and the admins/mods who have power.

My beef is that there will always be users who do this...and your list was just of users. But when moderstors do it, they lose their authoritative stance which get users even more irate, confused, irritated, etc. They lose any respect they may have had and they look like even bigger bullies.

The power differntial is a fair point. I think the fact that said op was trying to clean up a pre-existing fight lends to our need to take care of ourselves better so we don't need as much modding. This is why we do not have previous cases like this one. This situation was shit, pure and simple. It didn't need to get there and push anyone else past their limits. Her being pushed past her limits compounded things and it just spiraled on down from there. I'm looking at this situation like I look at education. Scholarships are great but lets fix the elementary schools first. Prevent the need for bannings, locking, blow ups. All that noise.

[bethy]

Some times the "Business as Usual" has to change in order for growth to take place. And when there is change there is ALWAYS resistance and even fall out...

You know, the front page changes are a good example that. SOme people went nuts over the changes, other adpated...and some found out that the forums aren't nearly as bad as they thought they were. In fact, one of the "comments" posters who hated me the most and initiated some really nasty and hateful words has become one of my favorite forum posters overall. She may not know that, but that's not really important.

Just sayin' that sometimes change really does foster better things, and resistance isn't necesarrily healthy. Sometimes, changes don't work out so well...but that's when you just keep working at it.

[sphinx]

I agree Sphinx that responding is not trolling.. rsponding is feeding the troll...

True, but when the original flame is causing a direct negative affect on the game... well let's just say sometimes venting is a healthy thing.

HAHAhahahaha... I won't argue that!...

I was just supporting Lilly's point is all...

I have a whole other forum where I "Vent" aka Talk trash on some of the users here that have upset me... It's great and it doesn;t ruine my time here...

Until very recently, my time here has been nothing but fun. If it's ruining my time on here and being prolonged and escalating, and if a mod won't slash and burn it immediately, I'd rather sling it back at the originator than sully anywhere else.

Another thing to avoid is dragging Drama from one thread into another... Just because we are arguing in General doesn't mean we have to argue in Plot... Not saying anyone has... just reinforcing the whole "Self MOD" thing...

So many of the recent problems would never have began if this was the case.

If the MOD's and ADMIN are interested in forum growth then this current culture is counter productive...

If you are TOO loyal to the people that were there when it began it will become their playhouse and no one will want to ever come around and stay...

Some times the "Business as Usual" has to change in order for growth to take place. And when there is change there is ALWAYS resistance and even fall out...

I'm personally not seeing a lack of growth in the ARG (don't know about anywhere else). I haven't been here from the very beginning, but long enough to see a lot of new people join in, and others leave. We also had over 6 weeks of absolutely nothing which didn't help at all. When it comes to the ARG, for every complaint you hear about a lack of acceptance, you get a thread filled with people who have experienced the opposite.

I can only speak from the ARG perspective, I don't know about the rest of the forum.

[trainer101]

Friends, Romans, Forum Members…

Well… this is certainly an interesting discussion. I’ve been unable to access the Internet until now however, I refuse to flame my ISP in a public forum.

As many of you have heard, it was a pretty intense weekend around here. I received somewhere around 40 PM’s of concerns and requests to lock threads. I locked two.

One because it had escalated to the point where it was clear that no resolution would be achieved within the framework of a public forum that was quickly growing out of control. Prior to locking that particular thread, I spoke with ALL parties involved and all agreed to take a step back and re-approach the discussion with a cooler head.

The second was locked because it was a poll about a particular forum member. While on the surface the poll appeared relatively innocuous and almost all responses were favorable, apparently it set off a firestorm of controversy in another thread. The person who oversees that section of the forum contacted me with the initial lock request. After reviewing and discussing, I locked the thread – not because that particular thread was harmful, but because we all know that it’s just a matter of time before a similar poll turns into a personal attack on someone. I could not, in good conscience, allow one to continue while faced with the prospect of locking another. That would be hypocritical of me.

· I do not delete posts except for spam and accidental duplicates.
· I do not lock threads based on any single request to do so, only after careful consideration and discussion. And even then it’s very rare.
· I move threads only when appropriate to do so and have never moved anyone’s thread to the rubbish bin. When a thread is moved, I always leave the “shadow thread” so it can be found easily.
· I do not ignore any concerns expressed to me via PM – to the contrary, I take your concerns very seriously.

That being said, I'm also aware that the moderating approach varies by section. Some sections can afford to allow for much more liberal discussion than others do. Some must remain more restrictive by their very nature.

I do my best to keep a “hand off” approach to moderating and encourage free and open dialog. I do not want this to be like ‘every other forum’ you belong to. However, I will continue to act to keep the public discussions free of personal attacks, threats and harassment (not to mention, on topic).

Feel free to hit me up via PM if you EVER have any concerns, complaints or just want to talk.

Regards,
Trainer