Calling All Thelemites

PansGirl · Post by **PansGirl** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:44 pm

I am a frequent reader....heavy lurker...and I am a fan of SFonzarelli. I like your insight, but dang...you seemed harsh on the Thelemites that posted in this thread. Someone specifically asked for anyone within the faith to pipe up and I really didn't feel like they were trying to convert anyone. BUT I completely agree with you on Crowley's humor. Many people on this forum and elsewhere have totally overlooked that part....I really think he took NOTHING--including himself--very seriously. That is why he never cared if anyone called him a devil worshipper. He probably spit his coffee all over his monitor many many times (metaphorically speaking of course)

PansGirl · Post by **PansGirl** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 1:51 pm

Also I wonder if anyone might think that the fact that Bree is homeschooled may not really have anything to do with her religion so much as her folks just got sick of a whack public school system and as pagans were not too interested in any of the available private school options? Maybe I missed the direct reference to homeschooling=crazy demonic religious cult in one of the videos.

Sfonzarelli · Post by **Sfonzarelli** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 5:53 pm

PansGirl wrote:I am a frequent reader....heavy lurker...and I am a fan of SFonzarelli. I like your insight, but dang...you seemed harsh on the Thelemites that posted in this thread. Someone specifically asked for anyone within the faith to pipe up and I really didn't feel like they were trying to convert anyone. BUT I completely agree with you on Crowley's humor. Many people on this forum and elsewhere have totally overlooked that part....I really think he took NOTHING--including himself--very seriously. That is why he never cared if anyone called him a devil worshipper. He probably spit his coffee all over his monitor many many times (metaphorically speaking of course)

I know I was kind of harsh. It's not that they were trying to convert people. They weren't, and if they didn't, it wouldn't offend me in the least. It was more that they were doing this reactionary "OMG THELEMA IS NORMAL - OMG I'M OFFENDED THAT THEY'RE MISREPRESENTING MY RELIGION" thing that would be just as suited coming out of a Mormon's or Scientologist's mouth. I think maybe they need to lighten up.

tannhaus · Post by **tannhaus** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:08 pm

Sfonzarelli wrote:I know I was kind of harsh. It's not that they were trying to convert people. They weren't, and if they didn't, it wouldn't offend me in the least. It was more that they were doing this reactionary "OMG THELEMA IS NORMAL - OMG I'M OFFENDED THAT THEY'RE MISREPRESENTING MY RELIGION" thing that would be just as suited coming out of a Mormon's or Scientologist's mouth. I think maybe they need to lighten up.

Thelema IS normal.

You're not upset because it's not your beliefs they're bashing.

tannhaus · Post by **tannhaus** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:16 pm

You know, the more I think about this, the more I think you must be joking. *whine* They don't like it when I make fun of them. Why can't they just laugh when I make fun of them for being different than me *whine*

Damn all those blacks, gays, jews, and other minorities for not having a sense of humor when we make fun of them for being different!

Either you're joking, you're seriously immature, or you're a bigot.

mousegirl · Post by **mousegirl** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:22 pm

tannhaus wrote:You know, the more I think about this, the more I think you must be joking. *whine* They don't like it when I make fun of them. Why can't they just laugh when I make fun of them for being different than me *whine*

Damn all those blacks, gays, jews, and other minorities for not having a sense of humor when we make fun of them for being different!

Either you're joking, you're seriously immature, or you're a bigot.

are you joking around now?
but hontestly, no one has the right to bash another person beliefs...
I have gone through it MANY times for being jewish, even though I am not the least bit religous... at alllllll
even still, I find anything I don't know interesting

Sfonzarelli · Post by **Sfonzarelli** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:25 pm

tannhaus wrote:Thelema IS normal.

No. It's not.

You're not upset because it's not your beliefs they're bashing.

Yes, they are my beliefs, actually. (And I've yet to see them be "bashed" by anyone other than random morons on the Internet)

tannhaus wrote:Damn all those blacks, gays, jews, and other minorities for not having a sense of humor when we make fun of them for being different!

Yes, because having a website allude to your religion is exactly like living in total poverty in a ghetto and being subjected to police brutality on a regular basis. Way to go!

tannhaus · Post by **tannhaus** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:28 pm

mousegirl wrote:are you joking around now?
but hontestly, no one has the right to bash another person beliefs...
I have gone through it MANY times for being jewish, even though I am not the least bit religous... at alllllll
even still, I find anything I don't know interesting

I agree with you. I was pointing out sfonzarelli's attitude and him attacking thelemites for not having "more of a sense of humor" about their religion being bashed. Like I said, he's either joking, extremely immature, or a bigot.

I'm sorry that people have attacked your heritage. I've seen it myself. Many thelemites study the Qabalah....not the pop-qabalah that Madonna studies...the real Qabalah. I can't count how many times I've seen people look at it and go "oh, that's satanic".

It's a crying shame that the holocaust didn't teach anyone anything.

mousegirl · Post by **mousegirl** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:30 pm

Sfonzarelli wrote:
tannhaus wrote:Damn all those blacks, gays, jews, and other minorities for not having a sense of humor when we make fun of them for being different!
Yes, because having a website allude to your religion is exactly like living in total poverty in a ghetto and being subjected to police brutality on a regular basis. Way to go!

and lets not forget all the rights taken away; being killed for believing what they do.
And I also know a LOT of people who roll-with-the-punches when they are getting made fun of. I am willing to laugh it off when some people always remind me of the stereotypes that jews a held up to. And I know many gay men who will act more "girly" to be funny, even though they don't really act like that

tannhaus · Post by **tannhaus** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:37 pm

Sfonzarelli wrote: Yes, they are my beliefs, actually. (And I've yet to see them be "bashed" by anyone other than random morons on the Internet)

Really? Then you should pay more attention. You may call them random morons, but if they reach a large audience, it can have a lot more of a fall out than you think.

tannhaus wrote: Yes, because having a website allude to your religion is exactly like living in total poverty in a ghetto and being subjected to police brutality on a regular basis. Way to go!

So gays live in total poverty in a ghetto?

I don't know what part of the country you live in, but you appear to be quite clueless.

Let's see....where does this bashing of Thelema get us?

I've personally been in a temple that was raided after a Gnostic Mass because the neighbors heard someone speaking loudly in a foreign language....

Yes, we were raided by the police.

What about the West Memphis 3? They're in jail for murder. Why? They couldn't prove they did the murders (they didn't), but they did prove they had Crowley's books and were thelemites. So, they're sitting in prison now as murdering satanists.

It may not affect you in whatever part of the country or whatever country you're in, but in quite a bit of the country, people have to hide their affiliation. They have to screen potential visitors well away from the temple...and they have to be afraid.

So no...you may think it's a ball of laughs. But many of us are tired of the lies and persecution.

Sfonzarelli · Post by **Sfonzarelli** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:41 pm

tannhaus wrote:him attacking thelemites for not having "more of a sense of humor" about their religion being bashed.

I'm actually attacking "Thelemites" (by which I mean you) for whining autistically about the factual inaccuracies in a JOKE, for being clueless neophobes, for being bourgeois and trying to seek legitimacy within the establishment, for comparing their non-existent persecution to the real persecution of blacks, Jews, and gays, and for adopting Fundamentalist Christian tactics of threatening to write angry letters to sponsors to protest the misrepresentation of a religion founded by a man who called himself "The Antichrist" just to piss people off for laughs. I mean, Christianity is an awesome religion, but I'm used to it being hijacked by greyfaced pedants. Hermeticism, on the other hand, remains relatively untainted. So let's try to keep it that way.

tannhaus · Post by **tannhaus** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:42 pm

mousegirl wrote:And I also know a LOT of people who roll-with-the-punches when they are getting made fun of. I am willing to laugh it off when some people always remind me of the stereotypes that jews a held up to. And I know many gay men who will act more "girly" to be funny, even though they don't really act like that

Yes, but there are also organizations and people willing to speak out and stand up for these groups...those of their own. There are campaigns to educate...there are statements made. So you're looking down on thelemites for not laying down and taking it when NO other group of people will?

Sfonzarelli · Post by **Sfonzarelli** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:45 pm

tannhaus wrote:Really? Then you should pay more attention. You may call them random morons, but if they reach a large audience, it can have a lot more of a fall out than you think.

If random morons reached a large audience, (which they have) I'll have a lot more to worry about than my admiration for a random 19th century European intellectual. (Which I do)

So gays live in total poverty in a ghetto?

I was referring specifically to blacks. I can explain the current state of the average "gay" in this country, but that might be veering off into irrelevant political discourse. The short story is that homosexuals in this country on average have to choose between a superficial and overly-affluent community that accepts them and a real community that rejects and represses them.

I've personally been in a temple that was raided after a Gnostic Mass because the neighbors heard someone speaking loudly in a foreign language....

Yes, we were raided by the police.

What about the West Memphis 3? They're in jail for murder. Why? They couldn't prove they did the murders (they didn't), but they did prove they had Crowley's books and were thelemites. So, they're sitting in prison now as murdering satanists.

Black people face stuff like that EVERY DAY. The point is, you get this sort of abuse because you're WEIRD. Accept it. Embrace your weirdness. Stop vying for sociopolitical legitimacy.

It may not affect you in whatever part of the country or whatever country you're in, but in quite a bit of the country, people have to hide their affiliation. They have to screen potential visitors well away from the temple...and they have to be afraid.

Maybe you shouldn't take yourself so seriously.

So no...you may think it's a ball of laughs. But many of us are tired of the lies and persecution.

I'm tired of your persecution fantasies

tannhaus · Post by **tannhaus** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:48 pm

Sfonzarelli wrote:
tannhaus wrote:him attacking thelemites for not having "more of a sense of humor" about their religion being bashed.
I'm actually attacking "Thelemites" (by which I mean you) for whining autistically about the factual inaccuracies in a JOKE, for being clueless neophobes, for being bourgeois and trying to seek legitimacy within the establishment, for comparing their non-existent persecution to the real persecution of blacks, Jews, and gays, and for adopting Fundamentalist Christian tactics of threatening to write angry letters to sponsors to protest the misrepresentation of a religion founded by a man who called himself "The Antichrist" just to piss people off for laughs. I mean, Christianity is an awesome religion, but I'm used to it being hijacked by greyfaced pedants. Hermeticism, on the other hand, remains relatively untainted. So let's try to keep it that way.

No persecution? I've mentioned a couple of cases of persecution. You can find more.

http://www.skepticfiles.org/xhate/attackot.htm

That doesn't count the number of thelemites who are attacked for being "satanists" in individual encounters...sometimes physical. That doesn't count the number of thelemites who have child welfare coming in and monitoring their children for signs of satanic abuse, etc.

Sfonzarelli · Post by **Sfonzarelli** » Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:52 pm

tannhaus wrote:
Sfonzarelli wrote:
tannhaus wrote:him attacking thelemites for not having "more of a sense of humor" about their religion being bashed.
I'm actually attacking "Thelemites" (by which I mean you) for whining autistically about the factual inaccuracies in a JOKE, for being clueless neophobes, for being bourgeois and trying to seek legitimacy within the establishment, for comparing their non-existent persecution to the real persecution of blacks, Jews, and gays, and for adopting Fundamentalist Christian tactics of threatening to write angry letters to sponsors to protest the misrepresentation of a religion founded by a man who called himself "The Antichrist" just to piss people off for laughs. I mean, Christianity is an awesome religion, but I'm used to it being hijacked by greyfaced pedants. Hermeticism, on the other hand, remains relatively untainted. So let's try to keep it that way.
No persecution? I've mentioned a couple of cases of persecution. You can find more.

http://www.skepticfiles.org/xhate/attackot.htm

That doesn't count the number of thelemites who are attacked for being "satanists" in individual encounters...sometimes physical. That doesn't count the number of thelemites who have child welfare coming in and monitoring their children for signs of satanic abuse, etc.