0140-How Dumb Am I? [2-26-07]

Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:26 am

autumneternal wrote:If we're going to argue that certain symbols automatically place someone with the Order, then we can't forget the Watcher birthmark on Bree's back.

Was it ever concretely established that it's really there?

michiev · Post by **michiev** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:28 am

autumneternal wrote:Something about this doesn't sit right with me.

First of all, we're drawing conclusions about a doodle that's looks like it's glued to a stick. Since Daniel just cracked a file that contained the same symbol, perhaps he copied it down to do further research on it. As far as we all know, only Bree was even partially aware that Daniel received a package from Tachyon, and Jonas never appeared to let on that he knew anything about the package. I agree that it's probable that Daniel, after his experience with OpAphid, could very well have planted the symbol, (whether he was aware of it or not is up for debate).

Then there's the fact that I seriously doubt Tachyon would be so careless as to reveal her identity to someone from the Order. She's been so careful up to this point to keep her identity a secret that I can't see her screwing up, especially because she has a reputation for always being one step ahead. She chided Brother for getting too close to Gemma and blowing his cover, I can't even wrap my head around the fact that she'd do the same.

Then there's the fact that we don't even know what the symbol means yet, or how it's even associated to the Order at all. It's still being discussed in the Parallax forum, and I don't think we can draw any conclusions or make any assumptions until we know it's meaning.

There's also the fact that there in Jonas' parent's cabin, which means that this...thing that she found could have belonged to them. Jonas was only a child when his parents disappeared. Perhaps they were with the Order, and taken out by the Order. His nanny could have been assigned by the Order to take care of Jonas and put it in his head that his parents were lost at sea. He wouldn't have really questioned it since his father was an avid sailor.

If we're going to argue that certain symbols automatically place someone with the Order, then we can't forget the Watcher birthmark on Bree's back.

I really think that Bree is, (understandably), jumpy after all that's happened, and she's quick to distrust because of it. I'm personally not ready to make any determinations until we have more information as to what's going on. I really think there's more than meets the eye here.

I completly agree with you. i was trying to tell people not to assume that that symbol meant jonas was evil. people are already saying hes PART of the order when they just dont know anything yet. the video just came out..

And i agree with what you said about bree. she could just be jumpy and non-trusting right now.

But there is something about Jonas that doesnt feel right to me

aideen · Post by **aideen** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:28 am

HOLY SHITE

I bet what's going to happen is Jonas is innocent and Bree goes on a crazy rampage and has tied him to a chair and is threatening him.

The injections have made her go CRRRRAZY

It would be pretty funny if he was innocent though

And where is Daniel in all of this?!

autumneternal · Post by **autumneternal** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:40 am

Ziola wrote:So, I just got home from work and saw the newest LG video and I have to say I'm a little disappointed. I was hoping that they wouldn't make Jonas be "evil" simply because it would be such a predictable plot twist. I'm not one of those "OMG he's too hot to be bad" girls, I was just hoping that they wouldn't go down a path that they have already taken.

Don't get me wrong, its nice to see Bree with a fire lit inside her, I just wish it was for different reasons....

I totally agree with what you've said here.

Lurker wrote:
autumneternal wrote:If we're going to argue that certain symbols automatically place someone with the Order, then we can't forget the Watcher birthmark on Bree's back.
Was it ever concretely established that it's really there?

Bree confirmed at one point that she did, indeed, have a strange birthmark on her back that she didn't like when someone asked her about it. I'll see if I can't find the post for you, (if I do, I'll just edit this post with the link).

ETA: Found it! http://lonelygirl15.com/forum/viewtopic ... 6295#76295

longlostposter · Post by **longlostposter** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:43 am

Just a few points, Magesa.

Firstly, it's been stated there is a possibility that Daniel planted the symbol for Bree to find, making her think it was Jonas'. If Daniel has been brainwashed/programmed by the Order, this could have been something they wanted him to do.

Secondly, it's possible that it's been there since before Jonas' parents disappeared.

Now, I'm going to address some things that do make it appear that Jonas is, indeed, working for the Order.

The most compelling argument to me is how similiar Gemma and Jonas seem to be. If you remember, Gemma was very ambigious in her videos. In one video she told Bree that, "It wasn't her choice", and then she turned around and said, "It's your choice", in the exact same video.

Now, getting back to Jonas. I see the same ambiguities with him as with Gemma. Magesa, you talked about the "Storm the Castle" video, where Jonas wanted to do just that. However, in the next video "Valentine's Day Massacre", he talks about how Bree wants to take the fight to the Order's door, and that he wants to just stay where they are, and the next time the Order hits, he wants to hit them back twice as hard. There are some ambiguities in many of Jonas' videos. However, I'm still not totally convinced of his guilt. The only thing I'm saying here, is that some of what he's said and done, does seem to mimic Gemma. Now, I looked at all of his videos a few days ago, and some of the things that made me doubt his sincerity before, seemed to be just nervous tics from a depressed guy. However, there are things in those videos that are questionable, as far as his manner.

The reason I'm not sure of his guilt, is simply this...we don't know where that symbol came from. It's conceivable that someone from the Order may have planted it there while Daniel was sleeping, and Bree and Jonas were making "Snow Angels".

A lot of people are saying that this was too predictable (Jonas being bad), and saying they want a real twist. I don't think this is fair, we have to be patient. Maybe this is a build-up to some other twist. Anyway, Jonas had to be either on Bree's side or not, and either was predictable, so it wouldn't have been possible for the Creators to please you all.

Back to what I wanted to get across to you, Magesa. Until we know where that cardboard, paper, whatever came from, then there is not way to know for certain that Jonas is working for the Order. In my eyes, it's as simple as that.

The other problem is Tachyon. Would she have known that Jonas was with the Order? It would seem she would at least be suspicious and checked him out. Since Bree said that Tachyon spent the weekend with them, it seems highly unlikely that she would allow herself to be identifiable to anyone in the Order. EDIT: the credit for this insight goes to autumn.

Ok, that''s my two cents for now. Long post as well...lol.

autumneternal · Post by **autumneternal** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:48 am

Another thought that has occurred to me along the line of "Jonas' parents were a part of the Order" theory is that maybe, as a child, he used to see those symbols and that was a drawing he did for his parents. Perhaps after the disappearance of his parents, especially if it was at the hands of the Order, he had his memory of being a part of the Order wiped so as to make the story of them being lost at sea more believable. It would stand to reason that there might be a few things lying around that connect him indirectly with the Order of which he doesn't recall.

longlostposter · Post by **longlostposter** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:56 am

lol, my post is just a regugitation of autumn's post. Seems he was posting while I was typing.

autumneternal · Post by **autumneternal** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:02 am

longlostposter wrote:lol, my post is just a regugitation of autumn's post. Seems he was posting while I was typing.

I'm a she, haha. I have yet to figure out how, with my username and avatar, people still mistake me for a 'he', lol. No hard feelings though!

Besides, my post is just a long-winded rehash of what I've been typing in almost every other post that deals with the assumption that Jonas is a part of the Order. My biggest argument is the whole 'Tachyon would not be so careless as to mistakenly reveal her identity to someone from the Order' one.

longlostposter · Post by **longlostposter** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:08 am

autumneternal wrote:
longlostposter wrote:lol, my post is just a regugitation of autumn's post. Seems he was posting while I was typing.
I'm a she, haha. I have yet to figure out how, with my username and avatar, people still mistake me for a 'he', lol. No hard feelings though!

Besides, my post is just a long-winded rehash of what I've been typing in almost every other post that deals with the assumption that Jonas is a part of the Order. My biggest argument is the whole 'Tachyon would not be so careless as to mistakenly reveal her identity to someone from the Order' one.

Your avatar looks like a boy to me. lol

However, Tachyon's message (decode from her YT account), suggests to me that she is not totally on Bree and Daniel's side. It seems that both Op and Tachyon are using them like pawns, as the ARG players said it was in the beginning.

longlostposter · Post by **longlostposter** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:10 am

aideen wrote:HOLY SHITE

I bet what's going to happen is Jonas is innocent and Bree goes on a crazy rampage and has tied him to a chair and is threatening him.

The injections have made her go CRRRRAZY

It would be pretty funny if he was innocent though

And where is Daniel in all of this?!

Yeah, that's what I think. He could be innocent, and Bree is gonna go all apes*** crazy on him.

autumneternal · Post by **autumneternal** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:11 am

longlostposter wrote:Your avatar looks like a boy to me. lol

However, Tachyon's message (decode from her YT account), suggests to me that she is not totally on Bree and Daniel's side. It seems that both Op and Tachyon are using them like pawns, as the ARG players said it was in the beginning.

Hmm...I'm going to have to get a new avatar.

Even if Tachyon isn't on Daniel and Bree's side and she's using them like pawns much like Op is, I still don't think she'd be careless enough to reveal her identity to someone who is working with or for the Order. I think she would have back-checked Jonas or something before staying a weekend at his house, ya know?

emilythellama · Post by **emilythellama** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:11 am

Is it possible that there is a "good" watcher and a "bad" watcher.

Possibly two different Orders or something?

[[First post long time viewer. Never got in the action before hehe.]]

longlostposter · Post by **longlostposter** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:16 am

emilythellama wrote:Is it possible that there is a "good" watcher and a "bad" watcher.

Possibly two different Orders or something?

[[First post long time viewer. Never got in the action before hehe.]]

One theory about this is one that Dr. Immant brought up (a YT user who isn't canon, but was playing the part of someone high up in the Order). He said that there were traditionalists and revisionist (can't think of the exact words) within the Order, and that there was infighting between the two factions. It is a definite possibility that these two are the result of infighting within the Order.

Isn't Tachyon supposed to be working for a government agency as some kind of undercover?

scheidel21 · Post by **scheidel21** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:19 am

I think we need to look a this in a larger context, the battle of good vs evil, which has been the basis of stories for milenia. Sometimes it is not just a black and white issue, for we all internally struggle witht he good and evil within us. However, what have we always seen in almost all of these stories, and even in observation of life, things balance out.

There must be good to combat evil and evil to be at odds with good. one cannot exist without the other, from the beginning of time (Christian theology here) there was good -GOD- and bad -LUCIFER-

The image file from Tachyon has a symmetry to it, and remember these are graphical combinations of Greek letters. a heiroglyph of a kind. You have the OT symbol in the upper left balanced by the AE in the upper right, with the watcher symbol lower left balanced by the two legged watcher type symbol in the lower right hand, a nice symetry a balance if you will.

Pure speculation but might there be a correlation of the left hand symbols and the right hand symbols. Like left is bad, right is good. Even the location mught not be too much of a stretch to extrapolate such an idea. For many years being a southpaw was seen, especially by the christiandom to be a mark of the devil. Heck my grandfather was born left handed and he was made to use his right hand instead.

Other speculation:

Someone posted that AE could be referred to as an age marker. Possibly my balance idea is out of whack and these four symbols represent maybe levels of the order or some instructions on levels in the order. Like at a certain age a member of the order becomes more than a watcher.

Conclusion:

I don't see how they could just make Jonas bad it is too predictable, there has to be more to it. Also we know that Tachyon fights the order, would it be stretch to think there is an organization that is the opposite of the order, or a different faction? Christianity, judism, Islam, and many other faiths beliefs have factions that split early in history leading to different theologies. Could a split chasm have gone through the early order causing two factions on that is steeped in a more evil theology and one that is steeped in a more flowery look at things.

I do think that without more information it is all up in the air.

emilythellama · Post by **emilythellama** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 3:22 am

scheidel21 wrote:Conclusion:

I don't see how they could just make Jonas bad it is too predictable, there has to be more to it. Also we know that Tachyon fights the order, would it be stretch to think there is an organization that is the opposite of the order, or a different faction? Christianity, judism, Islam, and many other faiths beliefs have factions that split early in history leading to different theologies. Could a split chasm have gone through the early order causing two factions on that is steeped in a more evil theology and one that is steeped in a more flowery look at things.

I do think that without more information it is all up in the air.

I agree in the thinking of making Jonas bad being too predictable.

Well. I actually agree with everything you said. Hehe.