0201 -- "Opening the Box" [05/29/07]

Bif Nasty · Post by **Bif Nasty** » Thu May 31, 2007 10:13 am

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract

Ok, I'm not 100 % sure what this means, but I think this proves my point. Jason, the med student, sent this my way.

impulse · Post by **impulse** » Thu May 31, 2007 10:14 am

Bif Nasty wrote:
impulse wrote:
Ruberic wrote: But WHY would they inject her still if it may make her trait negative?
It depends on the drug they're injecting her with. You know that, don't you?
It might not be injecting her. They might be drawing blood.

They could, but I don't think the bandage would be on the upper arm then.

impulse · Post by **impulse** » Thu May 31, 2007 10:15 am

Bif Nasty wrote:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract

Ok, I'm not 100 % sure what this means, but I think this proves my point. Jason, the med student, sent this my way.

I don't get it. What is the green alga Chlorella supposed to prove?

Bif Nasty · Post by **Bif Nasty** » Thu May 31, 2007 10:24 am

Yeah, like I said, it was a shot in the dark. I am a english major. Med student told me it would work. I think he made me look dumb.

Haether · Post by **Haether** » Thu May 31, 2007 2:58 pm

Also, and since you work in medecine, I have to say that I never fully understood what epogen is for.... Maybe you have a good explanation for that.

from the patient information brochure:
http://www.epogen.com/pdf/epogen_ppi.pdf

What is EPOGEN®?
EPOGEN® (EE-PO-JEN) is a man-made form of the protein human erythropoietin (ee-rith-row-po-eh-tin). EPOGEN® works by stimulating your bone marrow to make red blood cells.
After two to six weeks of treatment, your red blood cell counts may increase and if so, you may be able to avoid the need for red blood cell transfusion.

Amgen basically genetically engineered yeast to excrete erythropoietin, which is a protein that stimulates the red bone marrow to make more red blood cells (erythrocytes), which are the oxygen carrying cells in the blood. It is used a treatment in patients that are chronically anemic, specifically cancer and HIV patients and people with kidney disease, to reduce the need for transfusions. It is usually dosed intravenously (into a vein) but can be dosed subcutaneously (under the skin) in some cases. If Bree is, in fact, getting Epogen injections, it appears they are giving them subcutaneously in her arm, which is an odd place to give this type of injection.

Giving Epogen to a normal, healthy person can be very dangerous:

EPOGEN® and other erythropoiesis-stimulating agents (ESAs) increased the risk for death and for serious cardiovascular events when administered to target a hemoglobin of greater than 12 g/dL (see WARNINGS: Increased Mortality, Serious Cardiovascular and Thromboembolic Events).

it causes clots, which can travel to the brain, heart, or lung and kill the person.

Epogen is not given to people who have iron-deficiency anemia, iron levels have to be normal for the drug to work properly.

I hope this answered the questions you have.

Haether · Post by **Haether** » Thu May 31, 2007 3:08 pm

Interesting concept. Does it always work?

nothing ever always works in medicine, dear Lurker.

in this case, it usually doesn't work...we're in the very early stages of ribozyme research.
I posted more about ribozyme research in plot discussion, but I've been accused of being too obtuse. Essentially, ribozymes are being researched as treatments for cancer, as anti-viral treatments, and possibly as treatments for some genetic diseases.
The treatment for genetic diseases is very very early right now. We can "turn off" a deleterious gene that isn't needed for life by basically destroying it. In a case like sickle cell anemia, ribozyme treatments wouldn't really work, since you need that gene to make any hemoglobin at all. Inactivating the strand of RNA after its read from the DNA strand would mean no hemoglobin at all. That will kill you faster than a clot will.
We don't really know how they work that well yet, other than they act like scissors on RNA strands. The mechanism is not entirely understood.

Haether · Post by **Haether** » Thu May 31, 2007 3:12 pm

impulse wrote:
Bif Nasty wrote:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/quer ... t=Abstract

Ok, I'm not 100 % sure what this means, but I think this proves my point. Jason, the med student, sent this my way.
I don't get it. What is the green alga Chlorella supposed to prove?

I didn't read the whole paper, but from the abstract it appears that they showed viruses that infect the algae spread the ribozymes (the RNA that acts as ribozymes, anyway) between individuals.

and now that's three posts in a roll. I should've just edited them together

Ruberic · Post by **Ruberic** » Thu May 31, 2007 5:15 pm

Going back to answer "Does it always work":

As answered above. No, but it is interesting in theory. We have a lot of interesting leads, just none that we can duplicate with any accuracy that would lead to a medical use at this time.

Ocham's Razor:

Actually, going to Lurker's point, this is not an inconsistency with the plot; rather, it is an inconsistency of the Father's story.

Epogen was found in Bree's house, the Order's storage facility, etc. The father stated that the medication he was giving her was to make her trait negative...yet he SEEMS to have been giving her the medication that the Order had been stocking. This is the part that is not matching up.

There is nothing suggestion that Bree's father was injecting her with anything other than Epogen. There is simply NO proof to substantiate this. Also, the finding of LOADS of epogen in the Order's facility indicates that this is what they wanted to inject Bree with. So the two stories don't match, or epogen is used to make someone trait negative, and the order wants whatever trait that was found in Bree to be supressed.

Following the clues (and the fact that Epogen seems to be a drug of choice for the Order), she most likely is being injected with Epogen.

FURTHERING this theory is that I have found no research (in Pubmed, nor could my colleague in hematology) that suggests any study indicating what could SUPRESS a ribozyme. Epogen does NOT seem to be a depression medication for the ribozyme in question (though, to be truthful, no studies have been performed indicating either way). [quick edit for clarity: I have found no research indicating drug studies that could be used to limit this ribozymes activity. we do know how to supres some ribozymes, but no medication studies have been published to medications utilized to limit ribozyme in question...back to my regularly posted rant]

So...goes back to my questioning the letter and the motive of the father.

Hope SOME of this made sense. I only have a few seconds to write this.

Ankhet · Post by **Ankhet** » Thu May 31, 2007 5:33 pm

I'm new, a lurker. I just wanted to post this link. I was looking for ribozyme structural formulas and I found this image. It looks alot like the drawing in Bree's dad's notebook.
http://journals.iucr.org/d/issues/2003/ ... 6fig1.html

sack36 · Post by **sack36** » Thu May 31, 2007 7:32 pm

Nieriel.Manwathiel wrote:
TommyIsCancer wrote:Man, I just love sitting back and watching you guys try to figure out these videos. I couldn't even begin to do what some of you people do. It's awesome watching this unfold.
moment of silence for the OpHeads who have gone b4...

Although slightly more adventurous--I could begin to do it, but it wouldn't go anywhere--I too marvel at the work done here!

Now can we have the answer please?

Ya know, I just thought of something. Didn't Bree say "Before Friday?" Isn't the "HoO Seminar" before friday? Could that be the Ceremony?

Ankhet · Post by **Ankhet** » Thu May 31, 2007 8:15 pm

The one thing I don't get is what could hairpin ribozymes have to do with Bree being trait negative or positive? They are found in plant viruses. What could Bree's dad have been doing with a virus?

luzdzus · Post by **luzdzus** » Thu May 31, 2007 10:23 pm

I'm thinking that the Bree factory adds a few extra genes to produce hairpin ribozymes to their products, then checks up on the girls to see what levels are present. The occasional girl will show extremely high levels and be put on epogen to increase her chances of surviving blood loss. Mr. Bree would have been giving her epogen on the Order's orders, and something extra of his own to try to reduce her ribozyme levels. Now that she's back in the Order's arms, she's back on the epogen.

I still think the ceremony must involve massive blood loss, probably to the point of near death. Maybe the ribozymes kick into gear at that point, modifying the ceremony girl's genetics and turning her into something or someone else. Ghod only knows what .

JanaL · Post by **JanaL** » Thu May 31, 2007 10:57 pm

I know there is a lot of talk about Ribozymes here, but I thought I'd add a little extra info I haven't seen yet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordo_Templi_Orientis

If you click this link, you will find the Ordo Templi Orientis, which was lead by Aleister Crowley. This is a direct quote from the page..

" O.T.O. membership is based on an initiatory system with a series of degree ceremonies that use ritual drama to establish fraternal bonds and impart spiritual and philosophical teachings."

If you scroll down the page, the O.T.O was also referred to as "The Order".

It also states further down the page..

" It also enables each man to discover for himself his personal destiny, indicates the moral and intellectual qualities which he requires in order to fulfil it freely, and finally puts in his hands an unimaginably powerful weapon which he may use to develop in himself every faculty which he may need in his work."

I have probably put too much of useless information into this post.. but I thought I would share since I thought it was interesting. If you continue to scroll down the page you will find the History of O.T.O and it's levels. I don't know, check it out if you like.

JustAnotherLonelyGirl. · Thu May 31, 2007 11:45 pm

Samara wrote:
What if our little friends in the Order are trying to use Bree to bring someone or something back to life?

Remember one of the audition questions involved stopping the aging process.

Sounds to me like The Order/HoO is on a quest to find the Fountain of Youth. It's reminding me a lot of Dr. Heidegger's Experiment.

I have been talking about immortality as being a key goal of the Order for a while now. I did some research about it. Here you go.

I think it would be a really cool way to go plotwise. I've been theorizing about it for a while, and the likelihood of its coming true is increasing lately!