tannhaus wrote:Hriliu wrote:Well, I am a Thelemite and Istrongly disagre with you. First Thelema is not the Religion. I am, for example, Initiated in Tibetan Buddhism and this is my religion. Thelema is more like ... the Law maybe? Second, Jack Parsons called himself Antichrist, not Crowley
You bring up a good point..that Thelema is more of a philosophy than a religion. However, most strains of buddhism (tibetan and pureland aside) are the same way. I would call it a religion because it is a religious philosophy...even though it's not exclusive like other religions.
Thelemites are muslim, christian, buddhist, wiccan, etc. I, for one, am a Thelemite who is also a vodouissant.
You make it sound like Buddhism, Islam, Vodou, etc. are mutually exclusive, when they're not. Which was oe of the points Aleister Crowley tried to make.
tannhaus wrote:mousegirl wrote:I hate it when famous people sell-out their religion... it is something personal.
Agreed...and the qabalah is beautiful. I think it's upsetting to me to see it profaned like that because so many people out there are trying to profane it and anything jewish...and here you have a rabbi profaning it himself.
mousegirl wrote:But I have never been talked to like that.
When people are rude to me, they just call jews stupid for not believing Jesus was the Son of God. That kind of thing. Most of the peole just refuse to believe that other people have different beliefs, and if they do, they are idiots, and whatever they believe is stupid.
Well, bigotry has many faces. But, I think you hit the nail on the head there. It's the idea that your beliefs or the way you do things is "right" and anyone that deviates is wrong. It doesn't take into account that there can be many ways to do things...it forces a value judgement.
There are a lot of things people take for granted that is not extended to minorities. 16 years ago when I became a thelemite, the bodymaster of my local body was expecting a child in his family. Within six months of the child being born, child welfare services was visiting his house. A neighbor or someone complained and they were checking for signs of satanic abuse. They didn't just come once. They set up a schedule and came like once a month for a period of six months. Yet, everyone takes it for granted that they'll be able to teach their religion to their child without some authority threatening to take their children away from them if they do.
Thelema is a recognized religion by the US government. It is tax exempt. That doesn't mean that a lot of persecution doesn't happen. It does. Wiccans deal with it too. That's one reason they started the Wiccan Anti-Defamation League.
I've known people to be pulled over after leaving meetings and have their ritual daggers and other sacred ceremonial items manhandled and desecrated by the police...sometimes seized. When we were raided, they smashed one of our member's face into the door. Why? We were evil...we were satanic... all the things we're not.
I guess it's fine when you're a college kid. It makes it seem sort of cool. But after a while, you're like "Why can't they just leave us alone...or at least learn the truth and stop spreading lies?" They never do though.
I personally had an FBI agent pull my parents out of a restaurant. He told them I was involved with "people who worship Aleister Crowley" and satanism. He said it was off the record and he'd get in trouble if it got out that he did it, but it was just "one parent to another".
I was NINETEEN at the time. My parents were fundamentalist christians. I almost got thrown out of the house for that. I didn't have a name to go on...I couldn't press charges...I couldn't do anything.
After a lifetime of that, you just wanna say "Hey idiot, back off".
OK, I'd like to sincerely apologize to you for the brash and careless way I talked to you before, since we probably have a lot in common. It's partly my need to be a knee-jerk political instigator, but I crossed the line. If you are really a practitioner of Vodou, than you must know you are practicing an evolved form of the indigenous beliefs of two peoples (Africans and their descendents, and indigenous Americans and their descendents) who have suffered mercilessly at the hands of the existing political order in an unrelenting manner since the birth of the existing political order until this very day, and that every element of their culture, including and especially their religious practices, is a danger of said consequences. Similarly, although Crowley was a product of his times and in very many ways a bigot and a pig, he was one of the first prominant westerners to try to make serious knowledge of the spiritual achievements of similarly tormented and persecuted people known to the modern western world, for example; the peoples of India, China, and East Asia, the Jews, the peoples of the Middle East, the Romani, the Celts and other pre-Christian European cultural identities, etc. The reason Crowley was denounced in his day and continues to be denounced was because what he did was inherently rebellious to tyrannies that exist. Removing his teachings from that context is like removing the teachings of Christ from their relation the social and political context of his day and age. The experiences you described are identical to the experiences of everyone who wishes to live freely - the reactions you got from the establishment are identical to reactions everyone who wishes not to be assimilated recieves. As I have stated above, it is the fate of entire ethnicities, most of whom can't escape it no matter how hard they tried. It has nothing to do with a specific persecution of "Thelemites" - such an identity has barely penetrated into the collective conciousness, (Mostly impart due to intentional efforts to make sure it doesn't) but it has more to do with the fact that Thelema is weird. Yes, it is weird, it's not normal. If you think I just made a negative value judgement, it is indicitive of how ashamed you are of your own weirdness. If full practitioners of any of the ethnic identities I listed above moved in next door to most upper-middle class whites, they would be labelled "weird" as well, and the police would harass them as well. Because we are still living in the Aeon of Osiris. Seeking "legitimacy" in the eyes of certain people, sociopolitical legitimacy or otherwise, will only be a selfish act that makes things worse in the long run. Rather than confronting inherent inequalities in the existing system of social organization, it seeks to succeed within the existing system of inequality. The Irish and the Italians, for example, were once persecuted ethnic minorities but now have assimilated into mainstream American society. In the short run, this is good for the Italians and the Irish, but in the long run, it really just means there are two less capable and brilliant peoples to help confront oppression.
"Why can't they just leave us alone...or at least learn the truth and stop spreading lies?" is a stupid question. Sorry, but it is. That's their JOB. And they like it fine. Don't rue this fact, embrace it. Don't long for "acceptance". Long for the ability to protect your right to exist as a free person. Crowley didn't loathe the negative attention he got, he fed off of it. This is the man who said, in a letter to Gerald Kelly, "After five years of folly and weakness, miscalled politeness, tact, discretion, care for the feeling of others, I am weary of it. I say today: to hell with Christianity, Rationalism, Buddhism, all the lumber of the centuries." (Not that something's true because some old white guy, or some any old guy said it, but I feel he had a point)
The lonelygirl15/cassieswatching phenomenon is a change from the "lumber of the centuries". While not perfect, it's a story being told in a new and interesting way. And if you analyze ALL the clues, not just the ones the admins have confessed to being responsible for and the ones the moderators like, (no offense, guys!) you'll see that Crowley is being used in an intelligent way. (I wouldn't care if he wasn't. To hell with that fat old racist. I'd still find it interesting)
“It only takes 20 years for a liberal to become a conservative without changing a single idea.” - Robert Anton Wilson (a man whose work, if you're not familiar with, is very much worth reading)
Only kidding. 
Anyway, that is my opinion, but what do I know, right? 