What would you do?

AutoPilate · Post by **AutoPilate** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:41 pm

Sheikh, if I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that it's okay for the guy to keep his foolish pride, but the chick needs to think about survival. Is that pretty much the gist of it?

Ziola · Post by **Ziola** » Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:57 pm

Kasdeja wrote:Just let him know that it isn't failure or charity, you guys aren't sitting around collecting welfare...it's just tough to make it and with two little ones that only makes it tougher. It makes me feel better when I pay someone back...even if it takes a long time or it takes making payments whenI can.

When my parents first got married (almost 37 years ago) they borrowed a huge amount of money from my grandparents for my dad's business. My father hated it, but it needed to be done. The proudest day of my dad's life was when he handed my grandfather the check last summer...all the money paid back in full plus interest.

Nieriel.Manwathiel · Post by **Nieriel.Manwathiel** » Sun Mar 11, 2007 1:37 am

Kasdeja wrote:I would tell him to swallow his pride. I mean, nobody wants a handout... but if you really need it and you have family that is able to help, you should take it.

amen. and dude, it's family. perhaps ask them in a round-about-way if they're offering this money hoping you'll pay them back sometime; best not to burn bridges with assumptions.

Sheikh Gomelez · Post by **Sheikh Gomelez** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:00 am

AutoPilate wrote:Sheikh, if I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that it's okay for the guy to keep his foolish pride...

For the time being, yes.

And I'd argue that direct confrontation about pride seldom yields positive results when other issues are at stake.

... but the chick needs to think about survival. Is that pretty much the gist of it?

Depends on whose survival you're considering, and how and when you think the matter should be dealt with.

As there are kids involved in the scenario and the current problem is, at its heart, financial, I repeat my assertion. Directly confronting the husband about his pride serves little purpose at this point, unless you're willing to escalate the conflict beyond its present parameters, or unless you feel that dealing with his ego is more vital, at present, than ensuring the safety and well-being of the children-- and of the parents.

In short, I'm thinking group survival.

Arguments about pride, who's responsible for the current situation, etc. distract both parties from dealing quickly and efficiently with the problem at hand.

Blame, etc. can be assigned later.

I'm saying she should strive to resolve this matter first, using whatever (legal and reasonable) methods expedite resolution, and should deal with the other matter-- male pride-- at a later date, if necessary.

I don't know Kelly.

I do know that couples have crap on each other. I think that's some kind of corollary to being in a relationship; each party will have shit on the other and will know how to use said shit to hurt the other person. And there's a corollary to the corollary. Each party will be prone to unthinkingly referencing said shit as a defensive measure when said party's pride is wounded.

When stressful situations arise in a relationship, calling someone on his or her crap tends to result in an argument, and the arguing more often than not leads to shitflinging, and in my humble and impoverished experience, such fecal exchanges tend to be counterproductive.

Calling someone on his or her crap is great and necessary in some situations. At other times, it accomplishes little good, distracts both parties from what's actually important at the moment, and results in the couple being buried under a pile of poo even Job would find insufferable.

When you're living with someone, the situation isn't about one party. And once there are kids involved, the situation ceases to be just about the parents.

You could say-- and you'd be correct-- that he's not thinking straight, that his pride could hurt everyone involved. And you'd be right.

That's why negotiation-- or convincing him, on his terms, that this is in his best interests, and in the interests of the family-- is more important, at present, than calling him on his crap.

I say save that discussion-- or conflict-- for later.

Sheikh Gomelez · Post by **Sheikh Gomelez** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:09 am

If the fight becomes about his ego, and the conversation becomes about that, accusation, insult, and recrimination are likely to become part of the dialogue. And that time could be better used by both parties.

Especially at present.

Kasdeja · Post by **Kasdeja** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:01 pm

So...only the woman should swallow her pride if it is concerning finances and there are children involved?

Sheikh Gomelez · Post by **Sheikh Gomelez** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:08 pm

Kasdeja wrote:So...only the woman should swallow her pride if it is concerning finances and there are children involved?

No. In fact, that's an unintentional misrepresentation of what I said.

My advice is context-specific. As I said, if you confront the male about his ego, it's likely to lead to a different conflict, i.e. one that's not directly related to the issue of money. If such a conflict is somehow beneficial in a given set of circumstances, go for it. (I believe I implied as much a page or two back when I made the comment about escalation.)

In this situation, I fail to see the benefits of such an escalation.

And I don't see how avoiding conflict constitutes swallowing pride. Perhaps we define pride differently...

It sounds as if you'd want one party to "win". I'd simply want a resolution to the situation, a resolution benefitting both parties-- and the children.

If you convince the male to do what you want without conflict, I don't see how that's swallowing your pride. In fact, I think that might be counted as a victory-- a subtle victory-- for the female.

Kasdeja · Post by **Kasdeja** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:14 pm

There are ways to confront an issue without it being an argument or anyone winning. To me, letting it continue the only people who lose are the kids. This isn't a petty win/lose situation. I don't agree with gender specific rules. It's time to grow up. I'm blunt, I don't care if you are male or female. If you need to get your head out of your ass for our kids sake, then I'll tell you bluntly.

Sheikh Gomelez · Post by **Sheikh Gomelez** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:18 pm

Kasdeja wrote:There are ways to confront an issue without it being an argument or anyone winning. To me, letting it continue the only people who lose are the kids. This isn't a petty win/lose situation. I don't agree with gender specific rules. It's time to grow up. I'm blunt, I don't care if you are male or female. If you need to get your head out of your ass for our kids sake, then I'll tell you bluntly.

We aren't disagreeing, I think. And I've said nothing about pride being gender-specific.

I'm simply suggesting that the matter of the male's pride-- in this situation-- can be dealt with at a later date.

The primary question-- the original subject of this thread-- involved resolving the financial situation. The problem of pride can be resolved later.

Kasdeja · Post by **Kasdeja** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:19 pm

Exactly what I said...he just needs to get his head out of his ass. I've been told that in certain situations before. Shortly after extraction I realized my fault.

djmadscribbler · Post by **djmadscribbler** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:19 pm

My wife and I have been married 7 years, but we've lived together for 12 years and all I know is this - pussy footing around each others feelings, not talking about things straight out because we'd hurt each others pride etc... that's teh suck. It only ever made our problems BIGGER. Because we never talked about anything, we only were talking around it.

What we do now is talk about issues, talk about problems, talk about things. Do we do try to do it in a calm, caring way? Yes. Does that mean we don't lay it out the way it is? No. Does it hurt? Sometimes, but it makes our relationship stronger becasue we're not circling around things (I might make him feel inadequate! I might make her feel like a failure!) never getting to the seed of the trouble. If I'm being stupid and pig headed - she tells me. If she's being pushy and near sighted I tell her. And sometimes this makes us mad. In fact, sometimes we get downright pissed. For 10 minutes, or an hour. (It used to be a 4 hours or a day). But then we come to our senses and realize that as a couple, we really are trying to look out for each other, that we want what's best for ourselves and each other. That we aren't trying to hurt each other, we're just trying to fix something that could hurt US (financially, mentally, physically.)

This has lead us to be much more realistic about our own feelings (You feel that sting, big boy, huh?? That's pride f*cking wit ya as Marcellus Wallace so eloquently said) how we ourselves are being smart, stupid, dumb, immature, childish, mature, whatever. It's been work and compromise and headaches. But's it's lead to happiness, security, comfort, joy.

I'm sorry Sheikh - but all this talk about not just laying it out because it's going to hurt his pride - I think it's just BS. Will KTS's hubby feel betrayed, hurt, unsupported if Kelly just says we're taking the money and that's final? Maybe. For a little while. But if they really lay it out on the table I think they'll both be better off for it. If they have a strong relationship and really love each other and are willing to work at making it better.

Ziola · Post by **Ziola** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:23 pm

I have to be honest and say, considering other posts that Kelly has made concerning issues with her family (social workers) I wouldn't even give him the option. Get the f*ck over yourself dear, because if its a case of misplaced pride or possibly losing my home or children, your pride loses everytime.

Sheikh Gomelez · Post by **Sheikh Gomelez** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:27 pm

djmadscribbler wrote:I'm sorry Sheikh - but all this talk about not just laying it out because it's going to hurt his pride - I think it's just BS. Will KTS's hubby feel betrayed, hurt, unsupported if Kelly just says we're taking the money and that's final? Maybe. For a little while. But if they really lay it out on the table I think they'll both be better off for it. If they have a strong relationship and really love each other and are willing to work at making it better.

"Maybe. For a little while..."

I stated that the sort of exchange you're talking about might bring the conversation way off-topic and might, in fact, lead to another and unrelated conflict.

I don't think that's an unrealistic notion. I'm not sure you've adequately explained why my position is B.S., unless you have access to information about the particular relationship we're discussing.

I was mentioning a possible outcome, not making a grand and general rule. I was offering a hypothesis, based on some situations I've seen and experienced.

And I was proposing a plan. If such a plan wouldn't work in your marriage, that's fine. It might-- in fact, does-- work in others.

We don't know the dynamics of their relationship. (In fact, I feel silly continuing this discussion without knowing the dynamics involved...)

Kasdeja · Post by **Kasdeja** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:28 pm

We do know some dynamics...as Z pointed out.

Sheikh Gomelez · Post by **Sheikh Gomelez** » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:31 pm

Kasdeja wrote:We do know some dynamics...as Z pointed out.

Would those dynamics lead you to believe that escalation of conflict is possible?