0172-"The Perfect Beach" [4/13/07]

[mincartaugh]

Guys? Take your argument about the relative merits of a fan to the fanfic section.

[Renegade]

Why wouldn't it? If something bad is going to happen to her, she might blame Bree for it a little.

Which would, ultimately, make her angry at Bree?

But the words themselves aren't a threat, and that's the point I was making. "If they decide they don't need you anymore, they will kill you" would be a case where the words themselves were a threat.

And I was pointing out how implications and tone alone can be threatening enough - no need to explain in detail how and when exactly they're gonna kill her. Just a friendly warning that she's disposable now, and should stfu and never be seen again.

What's Bree and Daniel going to do? Seriously. I don't care how much Tachyon taught Bree or how pissed Daniel is, they're not going to do a thing to someone with a gun, especially when they would need to close the distance to even touch them.

Yeah...right. Because the feeling "if I don't do anything within the next two seconds, a bullet will crush my skull and splatter my brains" is no motivation at all. It doesn't matter what they usually would do. If the choice is "Fight or Die", it's basic instinct to fight. No matter how hopeless it is. And the more pissed off the hopeless are before that fight, the more dangerous they are - and both Daniel and Jonas were pretty pissed off.

And I doubt the Creators wanted us to think the Order only sent two people to handle this. There were two cars. The last time we saw just Lucy and one other person sent somewhere ("The Unthinkable Happened"), they used one vehicle. Added to that, the last time Lucy was heading somewhere that she knew to expect Bree, Daniel and Jonas all to be together, she went with three other people instead of one - and they had Daniel drugged and in their custody on that occasion!

I doubt it was just Lucy and one other guy. It would make no sense. There must have been at least four of them altogether, not counting Alex (who may not have sided with them). Even if Alex sided with BD&J in a fight, though, it's going to be at least four Orderites with guns (or two in your argument) against four people who have one gun between them. That does leave them outnumbered in all the ways that would have mattered if it came to blows.

By the way again ... to suggest that maybe they were looking for an easy victory and had to scrap the fight because one gun showed up doesn't really make sense anyway. If they did go there looking for an easy victory, why not send eight Orderites? 10? 12? Why wait for them to get back to the car at all? I don't think they wanted a fight.

Correcting myself there, it was the first, not the second car with an empty back; LPedia also says Lucy and two guys in suits are visible, all standing next to the first car.

...and that distance is vital. As I mentioned, the TAAG is themselves behind their car. You seem to assume direct hand-to-hand combat, 8 vs. 3, or direct execution by the Order. But if Daniel restrains Alex, and Jonas starts shooting from behind the car, what are the Orderites going to do? Pick up the invulnerability power up and just shake it off? They'd be trapped behind their car just as much as BD&J would be on their side. Yes, the Order would probably win. But they'd most probably lose people in the process. So it's by far not a "perfect opportunity". For exactly the reasons you listed, the fight stopped being worth to be fought the moment the gun was out. If BD&J had been unarmed, they could've easily overpowered and executed them, yes. Then it would have been "perfect". But the moment the gun is out, Lucy has two choices:

• Leave 'em alone this time, try it another time, knowing that she found them everytime in the past, and it probably wouldn't take long to get another shot, or
• Risk losing, in a worst-case scenario, all of her men, just because she couldn't wait.

It's just. not. worth it.

By the way, at the end, they drive right past Jonas. They could have easily capped him. For whatever reason, that wasn't their objective.

Well, what good would it have been? If that shot Jonas while driving away, all they'd have won is that Bree and Daniel fear for their lives, and do whatever they can to expose the Order and get help, and will shoot on sight next time, endangering the lives of Lucy and her posse next time.
Plus, the one knowing most is Bree - if they start executing, Bree logically is the prime target. Jonas only know what Alex told him. Which could be lies about Invisible Pink Flying Unicorns or something.

It's easy to destroy a camera.

Hence my remark "no matter who controls the footage afterwards".

In any case, they weren't bothered with killing someone on camera on December 31.

Well, I do think it's conceivable if they're in the middle of abducting someone on a parking deck, get disturbed, and decide to kill people, their first thought isn't "Hey, wait! Do these guys have a camcorder?".
This situation was entirely different than The Unthinkable Happened. The very fact that we could see people clearly is evident of that.

They've doubtless known all along. The kids have been living in Alex's house.

Heh. If Alex is a traitor, yes. If she isn't, her last phone call with them only said that TAAG contacted her, not that they were with her. The only way the Order would know BD&J were with Alex would be if Alex had told them - thereby betraying TAAG. Being an agent of the Order.

Anyway, maybe it would be selfish of her not to tell them what was going to happen, but if they had known, they would have tried to prepare for a fight. For all we know at the moment, rather than having them risk a fight in which they would get killed, or flee (which might also lead to them getting killed), Alex just went out to have a little fun while she knew they were coming.

And made herself un-trustworthy for the rest of eternity. If she "had no other choice", and thinks she'll meet them again, she'd want them to know she's on their side, not a traitor. If she "had no other choice", and thinks she'll not meet them again, she'd surely not want her nephew to remember her as "the c**t who sold us to the Order", just after they made up, trusted and loved each other again.
And, she knows nothing. If she was really good, and concerned about their safety, the smartest thing would have been to sneak out and meet the Order alone, rather than to give Lucy an incentive to score points with her bosses for bringing an extra present.

The only logical explanation for Alex wanting that DB&J are there when the Order shows up is that she doesn't care for their safety, and wants that the Order dominates their situation - no matter what the ultimate plans of the Order are. If she was on their side, she'd have warned them, and told them to run. (Unless she's a selfish bitch. Which wouldn't make her any more likable.)

Without something that looks like a heinous betrayal having occurred

Like the Order showing up after Alex called them?

- especially when the Order would have easily had the whole thing sewn up if they were looking to bring harm - I'm not going to assume she was doing anything to harm them. It just doesn't make sense with what actually happened and what could have happened.

Unless, of course, I'm right.

Again, if they were there to bring harm, why not send enough people to make sure they never had the slightest chance?

Because

1. People striving for World Domination or goals like that are usually pretty arrogant
2. Sending an army would imply Lucy and her posse can't handle three kids alone
3. Convoys of dark limos with Men In Black inside tend to cause suspicion - would you like to have TV helicopter on your back, just because your hunting party looks like the CIA is invading a country?

And then, of course, there's the possiblity of pride and/or penalty - Lucy got f**ked over in The Human Ransom, Lucy lost both, Bree and Daniel, so it's entirely possible it's her responsibility to get them back "or else...". We're talking mad religious cult/secret society here, after all. Not county sheriffs.

Why not swarm and surround them while they're down on the beach?

Because, as I said two or three posts ago, the beach is a pretty stupid place for an ambush anyway. Wide open. Attackers visible from the distance, no cover, 360° to flee.

I'd still say they probably sent three people with Lucy and had no intention of fighting.

That is entirely possible. It does not automatically mean that Alex is not a traitor, it does not automatically mean Lucy would have engaged in a fight when the gun was out, and it does not automatically mean the Order would have won a fight, though.

By the way, are the Orderites telepathic? Was Alex able to communiate to Lucy and the others "I'm going to make something really random up! Forget the old plan about killing them!"?

That's possible...although it's more probable they just agreed to not put up a fight if kids resisted too much in their phone call before the events.
Not to mention they might just have certain "rules of engagement" or something. A catalogue of default actions in certain situations.
...or just plain, old brains. If I was Lucy, and heard Alex say "They're not here for you anyway, they're here for me" I'd probably get she's trying to de-escalate. Simply because it makes sense to make up such a lie after the opponent put a gun at her head.

If you've been watching any of my other posts today, you've seen I've been the one to point that out more than anyone else.

No, I haven't...I'll take your word for it

Yet the fact that they didn't do it when there was no way they could have failed says that it wasn't what they wanted.

Unless, of course, I'm right.

Hell, they wouldn't have even had to ambush them on the beach if Alex was in on a plan to assassinate them. They've been living in her house. She could have just planted a bomb and blown the place up. Or opened the door in the middle of the night for the Order to come in and waste them.

I said that back on page 16 - only about capturing rather than killing. There's no arguing the beach is a pretty stupid place to do anything to them, and there's no arguing that nothing makes sense there - but to take the lack of sense as evidence that all is well, BD&J are out of danger, and Alex is good, is just not rational. Just because the order may have had no intention to kill or capture Bree on sight doesn't automatically make Alex not a traitor.

There were so many ways they could have killed them by now if that's what they were trying to do,

"if" being the operative word - was it you who pointed out that this was the first time we heard they didn't need Bree anymore?

and to pass up an opportunity when they were off alone on a deserted beach where just a couple of Orderites (not even four, as were probably sent) could have killed every one of them ... it just doesn't make sense. At all. I can't see how it's even up for argument.

I'm not arguing they were trying to kill her. I'm arguing "being a traitor" is the only logical explanation for Alex's behavior, and if a killing had been planned, it wouldn't have been an easy fight, or even a guaranteed victory for the Order.

While I would kill them were I in the Order's place, that's clearly not what they wanted. Why that is? Who knows. But if they'd wanted to do it, they've had multiple perfect opportunities.

As I pointed out above, this was the first time we were giving indication that they could kill Bree, though. Before, she was always "the chosen one" that could not be harmed. What good is a perfect opportunity to kill someone if you're not allowed to kill him?

Renegade ... they've been posting this stuff on the world wide web since June. There wouldn't be a person who didn't already know about it. The media would have been all over this thing for months already. Nikki Bower would be one of hundreds of reporters trying to track them down..

Forgetting that "they are everywhere", are we? Uncomfortable facts don't get reported. It's as simple as that. Look at the wrong-doings of the US government, the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan, things like 9/11 or global warming...for all these topics there are significant groups presenting facts and stories going against the image presented by mainstream media - but they get ignored. No matter how many they are. Simply because people in powerful positions decide not to broadcast them. People in positions that, according to all we've heard, are probably in the Order.




Bah, it's five o' clock in the morning...I'm not gonna proof read this now. Who finds typos may keep them, who finds grammatical errors may analyze them in his native language

[giddeanx]

Why did Jonas remind me of Ty Pennington in this movie?

[Chelseyrl]

We weren't arguing, just a minor misunderstanding.

[fan]

Alex is saying "I don't have a choice...I still have to do...((????))...they're not here for you anyway."

What does she still have to do???

She still has to pay off those college loans.

[crazcritrchic]

Why did Jonas remind me of Ty Pennington in this movie?

Looking at that makes me hear, "Bus driver.... MOVE THAT BUS!!!"



And Lurker you're right. I was harsh. Being super-opinionated is my hubris.

[Renegade]

Alex is saying "I don't have a choice...I still have to do...((????))...they're not here for you anyway."

What does she still have to do???

LGPedia lists another line as "They're not here for you anyway, they're here for me, I have one more--" - I interpreted that as "I have one more job to do" cut off.

[EternalGoddess]

Hah! Jonas had a gun. I think it's about time considering the fact that the order is trigger happy. Bree didn't say anything when Jonas took out the gun so maybe she knew. Did you notice how quickly Jonas reacted to protect Bree? He didn't hesitate. So, Alex is sacificing herself so Bree can be free. I think that's extremely nice of her.

[mincartaugh]

Alex is sacrificing herself so Bree can be free. I think that's extremely nice of her.

Well it's nice to see someone else who thinks that Alex may have just done a brave and self sacrificing thing!

[Misty]

Alex is sacrificing herself so Bree can be free. I think that's extremely nice of her.

Well it's nice to see someone else who thinks that Alex may have just done a brave and self sacrificing thing!

Look at the early part of the thread, we thought that way back.

[mincartaugh]

Alex is sacrificing herself so Bree can be free. I think that's extremely nice of her.

Well it's nice to see someone else who thinks that Alex may have just done a brave and self sacrificing thing!

Look at the early part of the thread, we thought that way back.

Trust me, Misty, I've read every word. What I saw was a faint attempt to say it at the beginning followed by page after page of convincing argument for the opposition. I'd despaired of anyone still feeling like Alex was getting a bum deal so I posted an argument in favor of her. It was promptly buried by two pages of OT talk. Have you read all the previous pages?

[wh_pirate]

Ok. It's been a few hours since I have been on and I just have a couple of thoughts.

Why did Jonas remind me of Ty Pennington in this movie?

The first thing I saw was your sentence, and I was thinking "What is she talking about?" Then I saw your pic and I just started laughing.

2. CRYISME your sig is great!!

3. Can we try to keep our posts to a couple of inches instead of feet? That would be much appreciated.

[aideen]

Yaaaay!

About time :/

I don't think I've actually been on when it's just the name; only when the video has just become viewable.


Heeeeey, kiyoshi -waves-

Jeez, a few hours can make all the difference eh? =3

Heeeey!
*waves*
Rofl, I still have my sig. xD

I think my heart went *(&#$@# when Jonas pulled out that gun. Totally unexpected. And we're seeing a whole new naughty side of Jonas now.
Is this good, or is this bad?

Heehee! Yeh, everytime I read it it makes me laugh. So don't even think about changing it -gun to head-

Naughty Jonas
It's good, in a bad way.
Or bad in a good way...
Woah, confusing

really interesting.

2. daniel mentions his parents, rare moment.

7. good thing jonas was sober at the time, he was barely restrained as it was.

8. there is another skywalker

Wait, Daniel metnioned his 'rents? When?
Too true.
Lmao.

Oh Alex, you broke the beast's heart. You bitch!

Daniel just keeps picking girls he can't keep :/

Bree, Alex, Randomgirl ;P, Jonas...?

[Lurker]

And Lurker you're right. I was harsh. Being super-opinionated is my hubris.

Alright, it's cool. If you can acknowledge that it was harsh and unnecessary, then I've got no beef. Let's just forget it.

Alex is sacrificing herself so Bree can be free. I think that's extremely nice of her.

Well it's nice to see someone else who thinks that Alex may have just done a brave and self sacrificing thing!

Look at the early part of the thread, we thought that way back.

Trust me, Misty, I've read every word. What I saw was a faint attempt to say it at the beginning followed by page after page of convincing argument for the opposition. I'd despaired of anyone still feeling like Alex was getting a bum deal so I posted an argument in favor of her. It was promptly buried by two pages of OT talk. Have you read all the previous pages?

Aw, come on. Renegade and I have been throwing small textbooks at each other over that very topic.


Speaking of which ... now to Renegade's post. Round 2, huh?

Why wouldn't it? If something bad is going to happen to her, she might blame Bree for it a little.

Which would, ultimately, make her angry at Bree?

Why not? Less rational things happen, like a father blaming his kid for the mother dying in childbirth. If Bree had just gone along with the ceremony way back when, the Order would have never called up Alex for a favor.

And I was pointing out how implications and tone alone can be threatening enough - no need to explain in detail how and when exactly they're gonna kill her. Just a friendly warning that she's disposable now, and should stfu and never be seen again.

I don't think we'll be able to agree on that particular point, but I can live with that. I think it was just bitterness.

Yeah...right. Because the feeling "if I don't do anything within the next two seconds, a bullet will crush my skull and splatter my brains" is no motivation at all. It doesn't matter what they usually would do. If the choice is "Fight or Die", it's basic instinct to fight. No matter how hopeless it is. And the more pissed off the hopeless are before that fight, the more dangerous they are - and both Daniel and Jonas were pretty pissed off.

I think you're misunderstanding my use of "they're not going to do a thing." They're not going to do anything in the sense that they're going to get mowed down before they can even get close.

...and that distance is vital. As I mentioned, the TAAG is themselves behind their car. You seem to assume direct hand-to-hand combat, 8 vs. 3 ...

I actually almost suggested that you were assuming that (because of the reference to Daniel or Bree fighting).

[Argument over worth of a firefight at the cars]

I rather disagree. In part because I don't think they're that worried over losing a couple of agents. Heck, OpAphid offed her assistants and security detail on concerns of negligence or betrayal when Tachyon knew when Op would be posting a video.

Well, what good would it have been? If that shot Jonas while driving away, all they'd have won is that Bree and Daniel fear for their lives, and do whatever they can to expose the Order and get help, and will shoot on sight next time, endangering the lives of Lucy and her posse next time.

I didn't say shoot him and drive away. I said pretend to leave, shoot him while they were driving past him, and then hop out and take the others.

Or at least that's what I meant to say. Sorry if it wasn't clearer.

Well, I do think it's conceivable if they're in the middle of abducting someone on a parking deck, get disturbed, and decide to kill people, their first thought isn't "Hey, wait! Do these guys have a camcorder?".

The people they were allowing to run away were still witnesses - and if they were looking toward Jonas at all, they would have seen the camcorder. Jonas said they didn't even seem to give any consideration to them and just went about removing the body of Bree's dad.

They've doubtless known all along. The kids have been living in Alex's house.

Heh. If Alex is a traitor, yes. If she isn't, her last phone call with them only said that TAAG contacted her, not that they were with her. The only way the Order would know BD&J were with Alex would be if Alex had told them - thereby betraying TAAG. Being an agent of the Order.

Orrr ... if they fired up their internet browser and went to LG15.com or Revver. These MexiHo videos have been public videos which Lucy and the Order have known about since at least October (regardless of what was said in a recent retcon).

And made herself un-trustworthy for the rest of eternity. If she "had no other choice", and thinks she'll meet them again, she'd want them to know she's on their side, not a traitor. If she "had no other choice", and thinks she'll not meet them again, she'd surely not want her nephew to remember her as "the c**t who sold us to the Order", just after they made up, trusted and loved each other again.

A bit selfish, sure, but no more selfish than Bree's been. As long as she knew they wouldn't get harmed, I wouldn't even call it stupidity.

As for Jonas' last memory of her being that she was "the c**t who sold us out to the Order," I hope to God Jonas is more intelligent than to stand around doing this after they drove away:

Jonas: "That evil bitch! I can't believe I ever trusted her! She totally sold us out! Look at her ... riding away in that Order vehicle ... which she seemed less than thrilled about to begin with ... while we're back here safe and sound ... and after she dropped a bomb on us like 'They don't need you anymore, Bree'! I just ... ugh ... I can't believe this. What a horrible bitch. Well ... ... ... who's up for foosball? I hear they don't need Bree anymore, so it should be cool. Yep, don't need her anymore. Just like we don't need that evil aunt of mine who sold us out to the Order!"

And, she knows nothing. If she was really good, and concerned about their safety, the smartest thing would have been to sneak out and meet the Order alone, rather than to give Lucy an incentive to score points with her bosses for bringing an extra present.

As we already know, though, Lucy won't take Bree by force. Even back during the rescue of Daniel, Lucy told her "It's your choice." And Alex knew they weren't there for Bree anyway.

Without something that looks like a heinous betrayal having occurred

Like the Order showing up after Alex called them?

Do we even know that she said "Be there at such and such time"? In any case, no, that doesn't look like a heinous betrayal at all - because they did absolutely nothing to Bree, Daniel or Jonas.

Again, if they were there to bring harm, why not send enough people to make sure they never had the slightest chance?

Because

1. People striving for World Domination or goals like that are usually pretty arrogant

Familiar with several, I guess?

[*]Sending an army would imply Lucy and her posse can't handle three kids alone

Is that really a problem? Is success or Lucy's ego more important?

[*]Convoys of dark limos with Men In Black inside tend to cause suspicion - would you like to have TV helicopter on your back, just because your hunting party looks like the CIA is invading a country?

If that's a problem, then why send them in as a caravan? If their destination is the middle of nowhere (presumably outside the city), then why send them through the middle of the city like it was a parade?

Why not swarm and surround them while they're down on the beach?

Because, as I said two or three posts ago, the beach is a pretty stupid place for an ambush anyway. Wide open. Attackers visible from the distance, no cover, 360° to flee.

Actually that beach would be a beautiful place for an ambush. It's less than 180° to flee, Ren. There's an ocean on one side, a large natural rock wall on another, and then a steep hill on yet another side, with the slope BDA&J went down apparently being the only way up/down along there. That leaves only one open side to use to try running away - and if the Orderites were to approach by way of both the slope and the open stretch of beach (or even just the slope), what could go wrong (especially if you left some people back at the car in case one of them somehow got that far)?

The Orderites would have had the complete advantage in approaching. Not just in what options would be available to BD&J when they knew they were under attack, but in what kind of visibility the group would have had in seeing an approaching enemy (hills, slopes, etc.) By the time BD&J knew someone was there, they'd be as good as toast.

I'd still say they probably sent three people with Lucy and had no intention of fighting.

That is entirely possible. It does not automatically mean that Alex is not a traitor, it does not automatically mean Lucy would have engaged in a fight when the gun was out, and it does not automatically mean the Order would have won a fight, though.

Fair enough. Alex may be a traitor, but I still say it's a stretch to call her that based on this particular event.

That's possible...although it's more probable they just agreed to not put up a fight if kids resisted too much in their phone call before the events.

That's possible, I suppose, but weren't you the one who said you should expect people that you're trying to kill to fight back?

I said that back on page 16 - only about capturing rather than killing. There's no arguing the beach is a pretty stupid place to do anything to them ...

Well, I personally feel like I argued it pretty well. I guess I'll have to wait for your response to see if I can change your mind or if you can change mine, but right now I'm thinking that if I ever worked for a malevolent organization that wanted me to ambush and kill some people, I'd feel like the geography was on my side at that beach.

Just because the order may have had no intention to kill or capture Bree on sight doesn't automatically make Alex not a traitor.

Again, this is true. But just because the Order showed up (possibly because Alex told them where she'd be) doesn't make her one.

There were so many ways they could have killed them by now if that's what they were trying to do,

"if" being the operative word - was it you who pointed out that this was the first time we heard they didn't need Bree anymore?

I'm talking about in the time since they started living with Alex. Even in the time since a decision to kill Bree would have been made. Bree's been sleeping in the woman's house. I don't know how much more perfect it gets (that may be even more perfect than that beach).

I'm not arguing they were trying to kill her. I'm arguing "being a traitor" is the only logical explanation for Alex's behavior ...

Based on what, though? The fact that they showed up? That doesn't really do it for me. She did nothing that would bring harm to BD&J there, so I can't see her behavior as traitorous. At least not at the moment.

Forgetting that "they are everywhere", are we?

No. But they presumably don't control LG15.com, the fans who frequent it, the blogs they write, the telephones they would use to harass their local media outlets, the reporters (like Nikki B) who watch and who have their own means of spreading the word, etc. There'd have to be a whole lot of dead people and vanishing websites to keep these uncomfortable facts concealed.

Uncomfortable facts don't get reported. It's as simple as that. Look at the wrong-doings of the US government, the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan, things like 9/11 or global warming...for all these topics there are significant groups presenting facts and stories going against the image presented by mainstream media - but they get ignored.

There's reasons for some of those that are more simple and less sinister than an agenda of covering up the truth (I won't go into them because that's a whole other topic to itself; though hiding the truth was the idea in some cases), but I will say this: Ordinary people didn't have access to the info on those cases. That's different here. The media was the gatekeepers there. Not necessarily so here.

[CaptainAwesome]

Alex is sacrificing herself so Bree can be free. I think that's extremely nice of her.

Well it's nice to see someone else who thinks that Alex may have just done a brave and self sacrificing thing!

Man, I'm sayin BRee didn't say anything because Jessica Rose wasn't there!