[Discussion] Semiotics Contents: Image/Symbols

[ignatzmouse]

Theta Eta or Eta Theta is the winner.

You should have asked what all the symbols were

Hooray, finally we have the answer, even if we had to ask teacher

I'm convinced by your arguments (in this thread, Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:29 am) that the others are Tau+Phi and Lambda+Sigma.

At least we know what greek can't be read

[janesalteredstates]

The upper-case letter Η is used as a symbol in:

* Textual criticism, the Alexandrian text-type (from Hesychius, its once-supposed editor).

heh. I am so monday morning quarterbacking.

So if we're claiming relevance as an abbreviation in textual criticism, I'd say Eta is winning over Pi.

What you said

[Nieriel.Manwathiel]

Theta Eta or Eta Theta is the winner.

You should have asked what all the symbols were

Hooray, finally we have the answer, even if we had to ask teacher

I'm convinced by your arguments (in this thread, Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:29 am) that the others are Tau+Phi and Lambda+Sigma.

At least we know what greek can't be read

dude, if u think GREEK can't be read, TRY JAPANESE!!

[ignatzmouse]

The upper-case letter Η is used as a symbol in:

* Textual criticism, the Alexandrian text-type (from Hesychius, its once-supposed editor).

heh. I am so monday morning quarterbacking.

So if we're claiming relevance as an abbreviation in textual criticism, I'd say Eta is winning over Pi.

What you said

Thank you. I think the emoticon I'm after is "\:D/"

OK, I'll have a shot at attaching a meaning here...

Theta+Eta is a group dedicated to the use of textual criticism to determine the relationship of the Thelemite (Theta) texts to the Alexandrian/Egyptian text-type (Eta) to determine the true nature of θεός (another Theta).

My main problem with this is that it means that Theta+Eta is mixing a specifically Christian archetypical text in with Thelemite philosophy. This is far from my specialist subject, but I'm not sure how well they'd play together.

Oh, and if the Theta comes from "θέλημα", and specifically the Book of the Law, then this means Textual Critics Anonymous dates from the 20th century, and so shoots down my nice family tree. Boo hoo hoo.

Hmm, I just noticed that theta, eta and mu are all represented in "θέλημα". Spooky.

Not that this helps much with any numerology, or indeed puzzle-solving.

[cbizzle44]

12....8......


What about the Greek Cross of the Zodiac?



Color Version of the one above

I see the 12 there, but where does an 8 come in?

well doesn't that support the case? tachyon doesn't know where the 8 comes in either, but the twelve is significant

[deagol]

My main problem with this is that it means that Theta+Eta is mixing a specifically Christian archetypical text in with Thelemite philosophy. This is far from my specialist subject, but I'm not sure how well they'd play together.

Oh, and if the Theta comes from "θέλημα", and specifically the Book of the Law, then this means Textual Critics Anonymous dates from the 20th century, and so shoots down my nice family tree. Boo hoo hoo.

Well, Crowley wasn't the first to use the Greek word for "will" in a religious context:

Thelema is the English transliteration of the Ancient Greek noun θέλημα: "will", from the verb θέλω: to will, wish, purpose. Early Christian writings use the word to refer to the will of God, the human will, and even the will of the Devil.

There might be a connection to Christianity after all:

Thelema has been attracting more attention in recent years from scholars of religion, especially those interested in new religious movements, contemporary Gnosticisms and Hermeticisms. References at the end of this article supply a few such sources. Perhaps the most unusual attempt was made by bishop Federico Tolli, in his German book Thelema — Im Spannungsfeld zwischen Christentum, Logentradition und New Aeon [33] For Tolli, Thelema is to be regarded as the dialectical consequence of Christianity. Christianity for Tolli exists as a community in Christ, whereas Tolli sees Thelema as a necessarily individualistic response to the world.

...The merit and contribution of bishop Tolli to Thelemic studies lies in the fact that it was he who first expresses that the genuine meaning and idea of Thelema does not necessarily contradict the teachings of Jesus, as Crowley himself affirms.

-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thelema

Gnosticism first originated among the earliest Christians, which points back to the Alexandrian text-type.

The Alexandrian text-type (also called Neutral or Egyptian) is the form of the Greek New Testament that predominates in the earliest surviving witnesses.

-- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandrian_text-type

Finally, could Jonas' stigmata be pointing at Christianity too?

[Nieriel.Manwathiel]

could Jonas' stigmata be pointing at Christianity too?

eh, stigmata is defined as "a place or point on the skin that bleeds during certain mental states, as in hysteria," not an injury that induces hysteria lol

[ignatzmouse]

My main problem with this is that it means that Theta+Eta is mixing a specifically Christian archetypical text in with Thelemite philosophy. This is far from my specialist subject, but I'm not sure how well they'd play together.

Oh, and if the Theta comes from "θέλημα", and specifically the Book of the Law, then this means Textual Critics Anonymous dates from the 20th century, and so shoots down my nice family tree. Boo hoo hoo.

Well, Crowley wasn't the first to use the Greek word for "will" in a religious context:

Oh good point... The etymology of θέλημα goes back to the Will of God, and Judeo-Christianity. Perhaps a refinement would be:

Theta+Eta is a group dedicated to the use of textual criticism to determine the relationship of the Will (Theta) of God to the Will (Theta) of Man, as determined by the earliest sacret texts (Eta).

There might be a connection to Christianity after all:

Thelema has been attracting more attention in recent years from scholars of religion, especially those interested in new religious movements, contemporary Gnosticisms and Hermeticisms....

Gnosticism first originated among the earliest Christians, which points back to the Alexandrian text-type.

So perhaps this reading isn't as dubious as I first thought. Hmm, well at least it's a reading, after 26 pages of discussion it would be nice to have something to report

[janesalteredstates]

could Jonas' stigmata be pointing at Christianity too?

I find solace in knowing I am not the only one who thought that.

Who knows if the little guy really punctured himself with a screwdriver? But let me not get too off topic.

Uhm, yay theta+eta!

The Gnostics! That would be interesting. Have we had discussion of Gnosticism on the forums? Religion is already, in the real world, so meshed from the ancient Egyptians to Judaism to Zoroastrianism to early Christianity to modern Christianity, Islam etc., one could have fun with all of that.
A sect that formed before Constantine's Edit of Milan (or is it "at Milan?) who were shunned at the council at Nicaea... . Wait, sorry, I tend to forget if I am a fan or writing this thing.

I can't stop editing! Sorry, I've had no sleep. Had to write a paper that was just grueling.
But, what if they were descendants of Akhementon? And Christianity was really just a sect of that cult?
OK crap I will take this to either the religion forum or the plot forum before I drive off a topic cliff.

So, do you think we'll just be given the answers to everything now? I want a real puzzle, but no luck. Instead we get symbols we can't possibly figure out without being told by the breetards (nod to SadPanda).

[EdWont]

My main problem with this is that it means that Theta+Eta is mixing a specifically Christian archetypical text in with Thelemite philosophy. This is far from my specialist subject, but I'm not sure how well they'd play together.

Oh, and if the Theta comes from "θέλημα", and specifically the Book of the Law, then this means Textual Critics Anonymous dates from the 20th century, and so shoots down my nice family tree. Boo hoo hoo.

Well, Crowley wasn't the first to use the Greek word for "will" in a religious context:

Oh good point... The etymology of θέλημα goes back to the Will of God, and Judeo-Christianity. Perhaps a refinement would be:

Theta+Eta is a group dedicated to the use of textual criticism to determine the relationship of the Will (Theta) of God to the Will (Theta) of Man, as determined by the earliest sacret texts (Eta).

There might be a connection to Christianity after all:

Thelema has been attracting more attention in recent years from scholars of religion, especially those interested in new religious movements, contemporary Gnosticisms and Hermeticisms....

Gnosticism first originated among the earliest Christians, which points back to the Alexandrian text-type.

So perhaps this reading isn't as dubious as I first thought. Hmm, well at least it's a reading, after 26 pages of discussion it would be nice to have something to report

Concerning the part in italics, do you mean that these are the people who look over a certain text and try to pull messages out of them...like a librarian? If so, then perhaps they are the highest group within the order...kind of divining the will of Crowley through his writing. Just a thought.

[giddeanx]

Were the hidden lines in the image mentioned before?

If so sorry about this, but I kind of noticed something there are 4 lines that shoot across the picture. The lines are not completely straight. But I have a picture pointing at the discrepencies in the color.


Unlike the waffle fry grease stains and the strange land masses these lines continue across the entire picture as if it was burn or doged on top of the image. You may need to zoom a little to see them but they are there.

[deagol]

In light of Tachyon's recent confirmation for Tau Phi, Lambda Sigma, and Theta Eta, I think Daniel's textual criticism comment was just a clue for Eta and probably didn't intend to suggest any further significance regarding the various disputes among actual text-types, or poiting at division in early Christianity.

His argument was flawed anyway, since the term textual criticism doesn't imply a critical view or opposition against a particular philosophic stance. It's like saying, "omg check this out, The Order keeps mentioning pizza and, well, you ORDER pizza!" and then going on a research spree about the origins of pizza or a market study of the fast food industry. That's just silly.

[EdWont]

Hey, I posted this thought on another forum, but I'm bringing it over here, because I think it holds some water, and with Deagol's recent criticism of Daniel's argument, this might be an opportune time to throw this out there. So here's my thought process...

We have the theta-mu ligature, and we're told that it established that the Order monitors everything between what the two symbols represent. However, in looking at the ligature itself, there's nothing there to suggest the action of watching. It simply states two places: the sky (represented by theta) and the sea (represented by mu). That being said, if Tachyon's interpretation is correct, there's not enough information there to actually address the action imparted to that branch of the Order (nor the Order itself). That's point 1.

Point 2 is that, as of yet, there isn't a standard as to what the symbols should be interpretted as. That is to say that, going back to the watcher example, we interpret theta differently than we interpret mu. Theta being looked at as a diety's eye symbol, and mu is traced back to its origin as a written letter to the heiroglyph for water. Despite that both go back to Egypt, their function in relation to Egypt is different.

So, given Point 1, I think that there's either a misinterpretation of the symbols on Tachyons part, a misguided effort by me to try to establish action with regards to each symbol, or a third piece of the puzzle (with the first two being the letters in the ligature). This third piece could be within the ligature, or a seperate entity. This is what I was thinking previously when I had talked about a potential "key symbol."

Given point 2, I tried to relate the ligatures to the Zodiac of Denderah (given its Egptian origins) by overlaying the ligatures and seeing where the figures could be traced to and stuff like that, but it didn't lead anywhere for me.

I'm just throwing this out there.

Best,
EdWont

[tristan]

Point 2 is that, as of yet, there isn't a standard as to what the symbols should be interpretted as. That is to say that, going back to the watcher example, we interpret theta differently than we interpret mu. Theta being looked at as a diety's eye symbol, and mu is traced back to its origin as a written letter to the heiroglyph for water. Despite that both go back to Egypt, their function in relation to Egypt is different.

I think Tachyon may have told us how to interpret them actually. She said in an email, "Meanings, origins, equivalent characters in other alphabets, and uses throughout history...and I *think* I might have two or three of those four figured out...maybe."

But I also think since Tach doesn't have all of them figured out we probably aren't able to decifer them yet, though maybe we could get two or three if we get lucky

[ignatzmouse]

In light of Tachyon's recent confirmation for Tau Phi, Lambda Sigma, and Theta Eta, I think Daniel's textual criticism comment was just a clue for Eta and probably didn't intend to suggest any further significance regarding the various disputes among actual text-types, or poiting at division in early Christianity.

His argument was flawed anyway, since the term textual criticism doesn't imply a critical view or opposition against a particular philosophic stance. It's like saying, "omg check this out, The Order keeps mentioning pizza and, well, you ORDER pizza!" and then going on a research spree about the origins of pizza or a market study of the fast food industry. That's just silly.

Hmm, goes and rewatches video... Hmm, I see what you mean. DB says:

Hey check this out. It's pretty detailed. Your dad was really on to something. It makes sense that they adopted that symbol...being critical of the Order and all. It's associated with textual criticism and identifying and removing errors from text.

which indeed conflates critical (in the sense of antagonistic) with criticism (in the sense of literary analysis). I am reading high levels of bogosity, Captain. I misunderstood what he said: when he said "it's associated", I thought the "it" was the document The Order and the Modern Empire, but on rewatching, I think you're right that "it" is just the symbol.

Oh well, back to that google search on pepperoni.