Living In London - Gemmers19

amn34 · Post by **amn34** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:23 pm

I've read Hume, and I don't really see how he was a "bloke whose business it was to thwart the right of an individual." I mean, though conservative, he certainly was no Hobbes and supported rights, democracy, etc., within limits. Unless Bree's mother was going around saying that everyone who doesn't believe in complete Thelemic will and self-determination should be killed, I don't understand what prompted her extreme reaction - Hume was a pretty moderate guy. Questioning causality and free will is something a lot of philosophers do - if she hated Hume so much, she would also have loathed Descartes, Leibniz, etc. Ultimately this doesn't say very much because I think recommending that anyone be "put to sleep like a dog" already demonstrates that she's quite extreme.

(Also, even the categorization of Hume as an atheist is up for academic debate.)

robtomorrow · Post by **robtomorrow** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:30 pm

Sfonzarelli wrote:
robtomorrow wrote:But I guess I'm reading between the lines, because the context was a lecture by an atheist philosophy professor at a university. And it still sounds like Islamo-facism to me, or to paraphrase Rummies term Thelemo-facism.
I suspect that's your own bias against religion. Why aren't you assuming whoever she's adressing wasn't an "atheisto-fascist"? (As in, every other atheist I've ever met)

What she's advocating is the EXACT OPPOSITE of fascism.

Well without knowing what the professor said in his lecture it is hard to resolve this question.

My own religious bias is toward agnosticism, with materialist overtones LOL

But I interpreted the quote from Bree's mother as sounding similar to the fatwa placed on Salman Rushdie's head, or the Evangelicals trying to suppress the teaching of evolution or the bombing of abortion clinics.

TheFatLady · Post by **TheFatLady** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 7:55 pm

amn34 wrote:If Bree's mom is a "pillar of the community," or was at some point, ostensibly that means that she should be pretty well-informed, yes? So she shouldn't be clueless about the ceremony/Lucy/etc. as Daniel was speculating - unless "the community" differs in some way from what is going on with Bree.

This is my feeling, also. Gemma said this mom thing SOOoo pointedly that it seemed like a warning. As in, "You're going to find something not right about this ceremony stuff, and don't think you can trust your mom, because she's in on it. WAY in on it."

GraySavant · Post by **GraySavant** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 8:36 pm

Hey. Just silly idea: what if Bree serves her parents as passport back to full Order membership?

arammat · Post by **arammat** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:10 pm

Sfonzarelli wrote:
SharpI wrote:Bree's mom is a staunch believer, to the point that skeptics should be put down like dogs. Eeek.

robtomorrow wrote:Saying someone deserves to be put down like a dog, ( killed) for expressing an opinion is deserving of respect? Its sounds more like Islamo-facisism (to use Rummies term) to me.

DontHaveAClue wrote:it's a way to indicate Bree's mother was already nuts back then.
Except if you actually listened to the video, she said nothing remotely related to what you guys are talking about. What she said was:

Bree's Mom wrote:Any bloke who's business it was to thwart the right of an individual should be put down to sleep like a dog
Sorry to start a flame war, but I agree with that statement 100 percent.

Also, why are you guys assuming that this girl has fallen out of grace with her religion? Has she given any indication of that? She just no longer lives in whatever community Bree and her parents lived in when they were in Nottinghamshire. (To be technical, Bree said that her "commune" was in New Zealand - either they moved from a commune in New Zealand to another commune in Nottinghamshire, where they met Gemma, or both Bree's family and Gemma's family moved from a commune in New Zealand to Nottinghamshire, which is doubtful) Also, the commune does not equal "The Order of Denderah", which does not equal Bree's religion. Just because she doesn't live in the commune any more, doesn't mean she's not a member of this religion. That's like saying when a Catholic moves away from their town of birth, they're no longer a Catholic because they don't go to the exact same church. And the Order of Denderah is probably just a specific sub-organization or rank or something in her religious organization, or perhaps a religious structure that exists within her unstructured faith. It probably has nothing to do with the commune, unless all of the people at Bree's ceremony were vacationing from Britian.

You know what's odd? That wherever she used to live would have somehow sheltered her from Thai food. It makes no sense. Aleister Crowley loved Asian shit.

I totally agree with what you've said here. It was particularly irking me that people were misquoting what Bree's mother had said.

If you live in a small town, it's quite rare to have a Thai restaurant anywhere nearby. I lived in the middle of WI for about ten years, and I'd venture to say there wasn't a Thai restaurant in a 60 mile radius from where we lived, maybe even further. It's called living in the middle of nowhere:)

Tammy

robtomorrow · Post by **robtomorrow** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:22 pm

amn34 wrote:I've read Hume, and I don't really see how he was a "bloke whose business it was to thwart the right of an individual." I mean, though conservative, he certainly was no Hobbes and supported rights, democracy, etc., within limits. Unless Bree's mother was going around saying that everyone who doesn't believe in complete Thelemic will and self-determination should be killed, I don't understand what prompted her extreme reaction - Hume was a pretty moderate guy. Questioning causality and free will is something a lot of philosophers do - if she hated Hume so much, she would also have loathed Descartes, Leibniz, etc. Ultimately this doesn't say very much because I think recommending that anyone be "put to sleep like a dog" already demonstrates that she's quite extreme.

(Also, even the categorization of Hume as an atheist is up for academic debate.)

David Hume died in 1776 so I guess it wasn't THE David Hume LOL

HyeMew · Post by **HyeMew** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:25 pm

How are you people defending what Bree's mom said?!

"Any bloke who's business it is to thwart the right of an individual should be put down to sleep like a dog"

Well if this is a direct transcription it doesn't really make sense, but I can't go back right now to see so let's assume it means rights.
First, advocating death for ANYONE for something relatively benign seeming is absurd. Let's assume this means freedom of speech. Well, for example there are laws all over Europe which ban denial of the Holocaust with sentences of 3-4 years for doing so. Whether you agree with it or not, no one can deny that "interferes with the [free speech] rights of an individual". I know free speech rights do have limits, like screaming fire in a crowded room, but I don't think saying a historical fact is false is anything more but being ignorant.
Does this mean the German, French, etc. parliaments should be "put down like a dog"?
Furthermore, you defend Bree's mom without even knowing what the guy said. OK so we know he's an atheist. From what I heard he was not a rabid one who said things like "all religious people are stupid and should become atheists". If he did that in front of the class then Bree's mom would have a reason to say SOMETHING (though that drastic...?), however we have no evidence what so ever that he said that, and apparently based on his character people say in all likelihood he'd say no such thing.
It just sounds like he was talking about atheism, and Bree's mom is a flaming non-atheist so she got pissy and told him he deserved death for his beliefs. If you ask me there is nothing rational about that, and who are you to say ANYONE deserves death, let alone for "thwarting someone's rights"?? That's not a positive occupation however would I say they deserve death for it? NO WAY!

amn34 · Post by **amn34** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:38 pm

robtomorrow wrote: David Hume died in 1776 so I guess it wasn't THE David Hume LOL

um, obviously i don't think david hume was bree's mom's contemporary and that she was speaking directly to him. i meant that she was addressing the lecturer's presentation of hume's ideas, which would make "any bloke" either hume himself or the lecturer, who agrees with hume. either way, she vilifies hume's ideas. i don't think it was absolutely literal, as in, take david hume and kill him, thus implying that he was alive - it's more that he (and his proponents) would deserve to die.

Sfonzarelli · Post by **Sfonzarelli** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:43 pm

amn34 wrote:
robtomorrow wrote: David Hume died in 1776 so I guess it wasn't THE David Hume LOL
um, obviously i don't think david hume was bree's mom's contemporary and that she was speaking directly to him. i meant that she was addressing the lecturer's presentation of hume's ideas, which would make "any bloke" either hume himself or the lecturer, who agrees with hume. either way, she vilifies hume's ideas. i don't think it was absolutely literal, as in, take david hume and kill him, thus implying that he was alive - it's more that he (and his proponents) would deserve to die.

It confused me to. David hume "came up" - as in, the subject of David Hume came up, not that he literally came up.

As for those of you who responded to my comment, we're probably just going to have to agree to disagree. I would probably be considered a political "extremist" and would probably not get much sympathy on the issue if I debated my point.

quikstrike98 · Post by **quikstrike98** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:47 pm

"....David Hume could out-consume
Schopenhauer and Hegel
And Wittgenstein was a beery swine
who was just as sloshed as Schlegel"

Yeah, Gemma's vids are canon, I'll bet my next paycheck.

Sfonzarelli · Post by **Sfonzarelli** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:48 pm

quikstrike98 wrote:"....David Hume could out-consume
Schopenhauer and Hegel
And Wittgenstein was a beery swine
who was just as sloshed as Schlegel"

Basically my knowledge of the history of the pantheon of western philosophy does not extend beyond what I learned from that song.

thejyav · Post by **thejyav** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:48 pm

until they say other wise I'm going to assume fanfic. I have two theories. The first I mentioned on the first video's thread. This could all be a test run to see what fan reaction is. Think about it the creators can post any videos doing anything they want and then say its just fan fic if people don't like it. Seems like they could have Jessica's friend act ina couple of videos and see if fans really want a character like this.

or

This girl is Jessica Rose's friend, she is an actress, according to her myspace she is taking accent classes. This could just be improve rehersals that they are posting online to get her some exposure and for JEssica and her friends to laugh about when reading us spazing out over it.

beavinator · Post by **beavinator** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:50 pm

quikstrike98 wrote:"....David Hume could out-consume
Schopenhauer and Hegel
And Wittgenstein was a beery swine
who was just as sloshed as Schlegel"

Glad to know I'm not the only one who's had that stuck in his head since this thread started.

robtomorrow · Post by **robtomorrow** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:50 pm

amn34 wrote:
robtomorrow wrote: David Hume died in 1776 so I guess it wasn't THE David Hume LOL
um, obviously i don't think david hume was bree's mom's contemporary and that she was speaking directly to him. i meant that she was addressing the lecturer's presentation of hume's ideas, which would make "any bloke" either hume himself or the lecturer, who agrees with hume. either way, she vilifies hume's ideas. i don't think it was absolutely literal, as in, take david hume and kill him, thus implying that he was alive - it's more that he (and his proponents) would deserve to die.

I meant no offence to you Ann, I listened to the video several times and it really does sound like Gemma said "David Hume, an atheist philosopher, CAME UP, as he is required, because he is a illuminist of the university". Was that a gaff on the part of who ever wrote that script?

Or maybe she meant the subject of David Hume CAME UP in which case forget what I just said.

beavinator · Post by **beavinator** » Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:53 pm

robtomorrow wrote:I meant no offence to you Ann, I listened to the video several times and it really does sound like Gemma said "David Hume, an atheist philosopher, CAME UP, as he is required, because he is a illuminist of the university". Was that a gaff on the part of who ever wrote that script?

She is mispronouncing the word "alumnus" which means he attended the school. David Hume did, in fact, attend the University of Edinburgh. At quite an early age too.