Lonelygirl15

It's cool. It'll be fun.

longlostposter wrote:OK, I wanted to play buttinsky, but now I'll bow out. Please continue, gentlemen, with your conversation.

I'm glad you decided to join in! The more the merrier, as long as everybody keeps a cool head.

Lurker wrote: That's exactly what I'm talking about - an elaborated fictional world, consisting of related characters, plot devices or settings. There was nothing about the lazy eye video that would lend itself to crafting such a mythos as far as I understand it.

Ah, but there were plenty of mythology-building elements in the first few videos, here's a couple: The Religion, Crowley Pic, Cassie, etc. The way the story is told, whether it's vlog or straight short-form drama, does neither inhibit nor especially facilitate mythology building.

Lurker wrote: I saw a girl talking about a medical condition she experienced as a child, then explaining why she brought it up in the vaguest possible way (a spat with her parents in which she said they wouldn't see things from her point of view), and then I saw her making a puppet dance.

If there is anything more to it than that, I concede that it went completely over my head and I would very much appreciate it if you would point it out to me.

Exactly! The puppet dance! Did you slow-mo that, and reverse it? It's all hidden in there, honestly! Nah, seriously, you mentioned it yourself further down, her use of metaphor (just as one example, please don't start hammering on this particular occurance) is what made watching this video more entertaining and worthwhile to watch than the gammut of the later ones. Besides, she is not only talking about one fight with her parents, she pretty much conveys she is frustrated that her parents won't listen to her, when she is trying very hard to see their point of view. In just a few minutes this video delivers plot (i.e. conflict with parents), the character (i.e. conflicted, but pretty bright teenager) and motivation (i.e. frustration, needing to communicate but not being comfortable about adressing things head on).

Now, I am not saying it's exactly high literature, you are right in pointing out that some of their story devices fall short in several episodes, but I still believe this is ten times the quality of story-telling than say (and I am picking at random here):

- Yellow Snow (There is nothing in there except for some interesting photography of snow laden landscape).
- The Human Ransom (Some low budget Matrix action. Interesting for its editing and music video style, I agree, otherwise kinda lame with the cliché sunglass baddies.)
- For The Ladies (What was that? I mean, sure the occasional comic relief is needed, but Daniel was just made to look lame, and the jokes weren't really all that hard hitting).

So, anyways, just three videos I clicked on at random for no particular reason. Out of the three, I only liked The Human Ransom, for its editing, even though it made me cringe when I saw the cardboard baddies.

Now, to make my position once again clear. I am not asking for more stuffed toy choreography. I am not even asking to be back in Bree's bedroom. I do, however, contest that the earlier videos were written with much more care. When they contained humour, they actually made me smile, when they were serious, I felt it. They were made to feel real, and you can tell.

What I would like to see, is for the writing to become a little more sophisticated again, less world-spanning conspiracy and wannabe-action-hero antics, and a much needed return to originality. What do I mean by the last point? Well, baddies in sunglasses are horribly cliché. I mean, if you met these dudes in the lobby going up, wouldn't you have felt the urge to alert security? I liked the early Order. A mysterious group of unknown size and purpose that somehow is imminently interested in the life of a marginalised teenager. I mean, really, what have we learned about the Order since then, apart from the fact they control everything? Excactly. So where is the great plotting?

In contrast, elements in the early episodes have been pretty original, the Proving Science Wrong Segments for example. Again, easy on the trigger there Hoss. I am not asking for them back, surely they would seriously jarr with the current setup of the show. But at the same time, surely they can find something more original in its place than all these cliché and set piece setups!

Lurker wrote: I don't understand what you and Hye feel that it delivers. Is it just the metahpor aspect? I'm not trying to belittle your appreciation of those vids, but I honestly don't see what you see. I feel like anyone could speak in metahpors like that, and I don't think Bree really had any trouble being straightforward about those other subjects in the first place (such that she would need to use metaphors).

It's just one story device in one episode. And I disagree. Bree revealed very little about her problems with her parents and the religion in the early episodes. Whenever she did speak about something personal, it was always veiled and evasive. While she was extremely verbose and articulate about other topics, which of course spotlights the moments when she's not. That was highly effective in setting up her character at these opening stages. That's good writing and good use of dramatic tension. A flash grenade and some electronic music, on the other hand, anybody could come up with. But I don't want to beat down on any one particular episode or its elements, it's just an example.

Lurker wrote: She herself explained why she was using the metaphor in the lazy eye vid (but not the incident that brought on her mood in the first place - so I didn't feel like it offered anything particularly insightful; she was just saying she had a spat with her parents and they weren't willing to look at things from her point of view), and in "Poor Pluto" there was hardly any similarity between the metahpor and her high school story. She didn't even say anything about having to adjust to new friends - and the point couldn't have been that she was talking about being alienated (Pluto wasn't alienated; she even said it now had a new group of friends; if anything, she was the one doing the alienating by saying Pluto's new friends weren't who she'd want to hang out with). The Pluto thing would be a bad metaphor to begin with.

Again, I'm not saying it's Shakespeare, but it is pretty effective storytelling. Not to pick this apart, but I think the Pluto metaphor was pretty effective. Sure it's about alienation. If somebody discusses whether you are fit to be a planet or not (after being one since discovery), you would feel pretty marginalised and alienated. I think she was being sarcastic when she mentioned Pluto's new friends, or maybe it was just put in there to make her sound witty. If you go to this level of minute analysis pretty much nothing in LG15 would hold up. Poor Pluto would still hold up better than Yellow Snow, tough, don't you think?

Lurker wrote: I haven't denied it. I'm just not seeing what's wrong with it. I don't understand why the videos are being judged on an individual basis in the first place when they're not meant to be taken that way - something like that can't be separated from its context and critiqued on its own. Each video is part of something larger, not an autonomous entity.

THis is where I strongly disagree. If the individual videos were not to be worthwhile in and of themselves, by your theory we could probably skip about half of them and still appreciate the greater context. But what is the point of making them, then. Sure, the greater story is important, and sure the puzzeling together of individual clips creates the tapestry of the story. But I think, it is a major achievement if the individual clips have entertainment value of their own. Most of the early ones, were written so they would contribute to the story at large, while still providing a narrative that would be missed if you had skipped it. Nowadays, I find myself skipping, or stopping episodes midway, and not feel I have missed much at all. I sometimes go back later, to see if a gem was hidden in there after all, and so far, I have not been rewarded a single time.

Lurker wrote: There's something we can see eye to eye on. Like you, I also don't think the series would have lasted forever (or even up to now) like it was (some of the early videos were very entertaining to me, though, and I still watch them; others I couldn't care less about seeing again), nor do I think it necessarily had to evolve the way it did. I would have personally preferred an organization that didn't have so much power - or at least one that didn't have so much power in so many places.

Exactly! I am not asking to go back to square one. That wouldn't work, nor could it have been sustained forever. But it feels, like they switched from first into fifth gear, while pressing hard on the accelerator, and I do not see why it would have been necessary. There is a huge gulf between the story they setup up, and the story they are telling now. Less is definately more. If pressed, I would probably say it should have revolved around the things we see in the episdoe in the park and the ceremony. After the ceremony, and especially when they hit the road, the show went totally bizarre and often boring for my tastes.

Lurker wrote: It could have been like the Pride in "Runaways." They controlled LA, but their power outside LA was pretty much non-existent. Other criminals just knew better than to try staking out some ground on the Pride's turf.

Never seen that, but I trust your judgement.

Lurker wrote: I don't think that time or production constraints is what went wrong with the Order, though - I think it was just a mistake they made while writing before they realized what kind of limitations it was going to place on them at times. The Order ended up becoming something like - it may even be - the Illuminati instead of something like the Pride.

I am too lazy to dig out the post out of the bowels of the forum right now, but they actually admitted themselves to have production and writing problems caused by resource and time constraints when confronted with the quality of the show. I guess they took on the additional people to help with exactly that, and of course, their decision to integrate the ARG more tightly.

Lurker wrote: Well you can have an epic in any kind of genre (so long as conflict is involved). LoTR is definitely an epic, but it's also definitely one in the fantasy genre.

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Actually, I think Tolkien maintained that he wasn't ever trying to use LoTR's plot for allegory (it was definitely in there, but I think it was just a result of all his scholarly and spiritual influences).

Just some short remarks, since we are debating LG15, not Tolkien. While he said he found the deliberate use of allegory distasteful (like C.S. Lewis' heavy-handed catholicism), he also admitted that it is all through-out his writing, and that it is an inherent element of myth-building. Things in mythology have symbolic meaning, sure they can be enjoyed at face value, but there is usually at least one more layer of narrative beneath them. I would wager that the same was true for the early LG15 vids. There were several layers of story-telling going. The apparent one, i.e. girl talking about medical condition, and the more meaningful one, i.e. girl being at odds with beliefs and authority.

To me it seems, in most of the current material there is only the apparent layer. If there is something else in there, it is only as a vehicle for ARG clues, or things put in for effect. I can hardly find any other meaning behind the content of the later material. That is precisely why I liked the earlier vids better. They at least gave me something to think about. Now, I just need to watch, as I am being led by the nose from plot point to plot point.

Lurker wrote: I used "mythos"/"mythology" in the same sense that the Creators did. HyeMew was the one to associate what I was saying with epics. "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" has a rather extensive mythos, but it's not what I'd call an epic.

Cool. Just wanted to make sure, we're talking about the same things. Can't say much about Buffy, I only watched the first season, really. You are probably right. Buffy always felt more of a horror action/teen soap opera than anything else. When it comes to Wheddon, I am a firm believer in Firefly though! I think he's good in mixing stale genres with some cross-over elements to bring them to life again. I just wished we would at least see a glimmer of the same creativity and originality in LG15 again.

All that being said, I like the current Uncle Dean vid. Aside of the taxing Dogme 95 camera, there certainly is moe going on that meets the eye. Less helicopters and sunglass-baddies, and more of this please!

It's probably bad form to quote yourself from another thread but I think it adds to the conversation here.
I'll call this the importance of logical linear storytelling:

immortal1 wrote:I also would have also liked someone to acknowledge some kind of conversation that Alex and Jonas must have had where he tells her why he needed to crash at her place. "I talked to my Aunt Alex. She's on a trip right now but I wanted to make sure she didn't mind if we crashed at her place, especially since we haven't seen each other in a long time. I told her Bree had a state science competition up here. There's only one hotel in this one hotel town and there was a mix up. We got here late and I didn't think she'd mind if we crashed. She's cool like that. I think she was actually happy because it gave us a chance to reconnect and she invited us to stay. Oh and she asked if I would pick her up at the airport so I'll have to finish this up later." Sometimes to get from A to C it's nice to stop off at B.
What's really sticking me is why hasn't the Order frozen Jonas' assets yet?

Ways to merge old and new:

immortal1 wrote:I think you do have to stay true to the heart of the character. In Training Hard, Bree said "So, I brought along an old friend. I haven't really had much time to hang out with him lately, so, yeah. And to be honest, I think I'm a little old to be playing with stuffed toys. Sad but true." I would have preferred she said, "So, I brought along an old friend. No not to talk to- when I look at him it I remember how things used to be. It takes me to a safe place in my mind and reminds me that the Order has taken all that away from me." You do that and no longer is PMonkey and imaginary friend or toy, it becomes a symbol. Same thing with Proving Science Wrong. Bree is supposed to have a scientific mind she could use those skills to help herself. It obviously wouldn't be as lighthearted, on the contrary more serious and probably more of Proving Science Right. In a way keeping things like these that many feel are at the heart of the character but sort of growing them with her not only acknowledges their significance but in a way pays homage to them instead of just tossing them away or leaving them behind. Again IMO it's providing the B between the A and C of her character development.

Edited to add:

VanillaFlava wrote:When it comes to Wheddon, I am a firm believer in Firefly though! I think he's good in mixing stale genres with some cross-over elements to bring them to life again. I just wished we would at least see a glimmer of the same creativity and originality in LG15 again.

Not only have I agreed with 90% of what you've posted so far. I'm a huge Firefly fan. I have a script for a Firefly short I'm hoping to make someday. I see you have a low post count- what made you jump in now?

VanillaFlava wrote:To me it seems, in most of the current material there is only the apparent layer. If there is something else in there, it is only as a vehicle for ARG clues, or things put in for effect. I can hardly find any other meaning behind the content of the later material. That is precisely why I liked the earlier vids better. They at least gave me something to think about. Now, I just need to watch, as I am being led by the nose from plot point to plot point.

PERFECT! This is IT! This sums up everything I have ever said in this entire thread in one concise paragraph! THIS is what is wrong with the show now. There's one layer to it, the blatant plot and that's it. There's no allusion, not much entertainment, just an unfolding singular storyline. While before we watched LG15 for a good story and to be entertained, now we just watch for a story, and there's just no there there.

immortal1 wrote:It's probably bad form to quote yourself from another thread but I think it adds to the conversation here.
I'll call this the importance of logical linear storytelling:

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That's ok. This forum is moving quite fast, and things get churned under quickly. While I have an idea what you might want to say by your first statement, the quote was maybe taken out of context a little too much. Could you maybe restate what you mean?

immortal1 wrote:I would have preferred she said, "So, I brought along an old friend. No not to talk to- when I look at him it I remember how things used to be. It takes me to a safe place in my mind and reminds me that the Order has taken all that away from me." You do that and no longer is PMonkey and imaginary friend or toy, it becomes a symbol.

Good point, and definately a wasted chance to compact the story, tie up some open threads and move on. LG15 is especially bad at that. Many new threads are opened constantly, only to be abandoned, but unresolved a couple of episodes later. This really hollows out the trust the audience pays up front to any writer, and reduces the level of caring about the story dramatically.

immortal1 wrote:Not only have I agreed with 90% of what you've posted so far. I'm a huge Firefly fan. I have a script for a Firefly short I'm hoping to make someday. I see you have a low post count- what made you jump in now?

Oh, well, you will find my post-count to be considerably higher over at Anchor Cove, where I hang out with the other bad kids. This forum moves so fast, and often, I find the signal to noise ratio too much for my limited leisure time.

I stopped reading this forum when CiW was at the height of its frenetic discussion. I guess everytime an ARG betrays its audience you will find me popping up. OK, not funny. No need kicking somebody when they're down. Funnily enough, despite the fact that I didn't particularily care for either CiW or OpAphid, both had rather compelling (if limited) storytelling. The game elements imploded in both, probably due to the limited experience of the people involved. I do hope the creators will setup the ARG more carefully, and with more responsible personel in the future.

The startling thing is, that on this forum, the ARG seems to be the main attraction. While, I am sure the majority of the LG15 audience is not even aware of its existance. I can only hope the decisions regarding LG15s future direction are not unduly guided by this biased situation.

VanillaFlava wrote:That's ok. This forum is moving quite fast, and things get churned under quickly. While I have an idea what you might want to say by your first statement, the quote was maybe taken out of context a little too much. Could you maybe restate what you mean?

Mostly it's in reference to holes in logic. I guarantee when the audience learned Jonas and Daniel were picking up Alex the majority of us asked "when did they get in touch?" And next, how did Jonas explain why they were there and why wasn't their an acknowledgement of all the time that had passed either verbally or visually in how they acted toward one an other? When these holes in logic occur and force people to ask these questions it takes them right out of the story they are watching.

VanillaFlava wrote:The startling thing is, that on this forum, the ARG seems to be the main attraction. While, I am sure the majority of the LG15 audience is not even aware of its existance. I can only hope the decisions regarding LG15s future direction are not unduly guided by this biased situation.

Something else I agree on and have tried to bring attention to. There's some cause for some concern in that regard, from http://www.argn.com/archive/000566shake ... paphid.php

When asked about how things will move forward with OpAphid, he said, "Solutions right now are twofold... we're looking for good, talented people with ARG experience, and secondly, we're looking at the story and where it's going from here." He also disclosed that in the future, the ARG is going to be central to the LonelyGirl15 story, which is a significant development in our eyes. As for the pause in the game, players can rest a bit easier knowing that Goodfried is already hard at work figuring out how things will progress from this point. "The truth is that we don't know if the pause will be long at all - it depends on our resources and time."

I support the ARG because I undetstand interactivity is a critical element to the medium but it's not the only interactive element and I think it's dominating the storytelling too much already. I don't know if the input they receive here is what they base their decisions on.

VanillaFlava wrote:Ah, but there were plenty of mythology-building elements in the first few videos, here's a couple: The Religion, Crowley Pic, Cassie, etc.

I agree that Cassie opened the door to expand things, and the religion could have possibly done so (without necessarily making it an evil organization). However...

Around the time the concept of Cassie was introduced is when the style was beginning its shift. The very next video had the "10/12/06" thing, and then the one after that let us know that a ceremony was coming (everyone, of course, made the connection between the date and mention of the ceremony). The religion and the ceremony began looking really shady really quick (such that it seemed to be the intent).

I guess they could have made it turn out that the ceremony was harmless and the religion benign, but they were probably worried about disappointing the fans and letting them lose interest at that point. Really, I think they had reason to worry. They chose to begin shifting the style and introducing the ominous foreshadowing - and once they did that, there was no easy way back (especially when it was revealed to be fiction). Everyone expected something bad.

VanillaFlava wrote:Exactly! The puppet dance! Did you slow-mo that, and reverse it? It's all hidden in there, honestly!

It all makes sense now.

VanillaFlava wrote:Nah, seriously, you mentioned it yourself further down, her use of metaphor (just as one example, please don't start hammering on this particular occurance) is what made watching this video more entertaining and worthwhile to watch than the gammut of the later ones.

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Now, I am not saying it's exactly high literature, you are right in pointing out that some of their story devices fall short in several episodes, but I still believe this is ten times the quality of story-telling than say (and I am picking at random here):

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So, anyways, just three videos I clicked on at random for no particular reason. Out of the three, I only liked The Human Ransom, for its editing, even though it made me cringe when I saw the cardboard baddies.

Now, to make my position once again clear. I am not asking for more stuffed toy choreography. I am not even asking to be back in Bree's bedroom. I do, however, contest that the earlier videos were written with much more care. When they contained humour, they actually made me smile, when they were serious, I felt it. They were made to feel real, and you can tell.

I can agree that one got the impression that they agonized over the details more in the early vids (they may still agonize as much, but I'm just commenting on the impression one gets; the change in style may have affected it a little), but I still find the humor in the recent videos funny. More funny than the early stuff, to be honest.

The serious stuff, I agree, doesn't always hit as hard now as it did then, though. If we were to watch the first few vlogs and then watch "Watch This!" we'd be floored. That said, we still are attached to the characters and if something really bad happened, we'd feel it. It's just different now because our expectations have changed. We've gotten used to serious moments.

On the matter of the three videos you selected at random, though, what you didn't mention is that each played its part in advancing the story. "For The Ladies," while being full of funny moments, also moved things along in that it got Daniel into a position to be kidnapped. "The Human Ransom" got Daniel back, had Bree do something for once, put Tachyon and Brother with the team briefly, and introduced the files Tachyon stole from the Order. "Yellow Snow" had the group heading up to Jonas' cabin where the files would be accessed, Jonas suspected of being a member of the Order, the discovery of the anti-Order would be made, Bree would begin doubting her abilities even more - and all of that puts us where the story currently is: Bree off with Tachyon, D&J with Alex.

By the way, you have to admit Miles and Mesh looked pretty cool in their OpAPHID outfits in "The Human Ransom." Come on, give them that.

VanillaFlava wrote:I liked the early Order. A mysterious group of unknown size and purpose that somehow is imminently interested in the life of a marginalised teenager.

To be honest, I found them more intriguing at that time too. That said, I like OpAphid a lot. Like I said before, I wish they hadn't made them so darn powerful outside LA. I mean, obviously they don't want to rip-off Brian K. Vaughan's "Runaways" and just remake the Pride, but I really do agree that they shouldn't be as powerful as they seem to be.

VanillaFlava wrote:I mean, really, what have we learned about the Order since then, apart from the fact they control everything? Excactly. So where is the great plotting?

It's not perfect, but it's pretty good. I think they've gotten better at writing all this, and I won't rule out their ability to do better things. I think they know they've made mistakes (we fans certainly don't fail to tell them), and they're learning as they go, and improving because of it.

VanillaFlava wrote:In contrast, elements in the early episodes have been pretty original, the Proving Science Wrong Segments for example. Again, easy on the trigger there Hoss. I am not asking for them back, surely they would seriously jarr with the current setup of the show. But at the same time, surely they can find something more original in its place than all these cliché and set piece setups!

We've already agreed that stuff like Proving Science Wrong wouldn't have kept it afloat for very long, so for how long would reinventing the wheel be a measure of greatness? Sometimes looking for complete originality is not the way to measure quality. Look at that Nintendo game "Solar Jetman," for instance: Fairly original, but it still managed to be a piece of crap, while fighting games like "Soul Blade" and "Super Smash Brothers" just took the fighting genre and tried to make a fun game with it. Of course, highly original magnificent gems like "Ico" and "Shadow of the Colossus" do exist - and can't really be compared to anything else they're so original.

Anyway, my point is, I often look just for the best rendition of the familiar. Some of the most fun stuff can be found there.

VanillaFlava wrote:It's just one story device in one episode. And I disagree. Bree revealed very little about her problems with her parents and the religion in the early episodes. Whenever she did speak about something personal, it was always veiled and evasive.

She explained that she was vague about those things, though, because she thought people would make insensitive comments.

VanillaFlava wrote:A flash grenade and some electronic music, on the other hand, anybody could come up with. But I don't want to beat down on any one particular episode or its elements, it's just an example.

Agreed. And, in the same spirit, I'll point out that "Poor Pluto" and the lazy eye video certainly aren't representative of all the early videos (those were the only times I can think of offhand where she was trying to use metaphors for some reason).

VanillaFlava wrote:Again, I'm not saying it's Shakespeare, but it is pretty effective storytelling. Not to pick this apart, but I think the Pluto metaphor was pretty effective. Sure it's about alienation. If somebody discusses whether you are fit to be a planet or not (after being one since discovery), you would feel pretty marginalised and alienated. I think she was being sarcastic when she mentioned Pluto's new friends, or maybe it was just put in there to make her sound witty. If you go to this level of minute analysis pretty much nothing in LG15 would hold up.

I just don't think it ever worked. I remember watching the video the first time and thinking "That was really random, Bree. Why would you even bring that up? It had nothing to do what what you were talking about in the first half of the video. It doesn't even make sense as a metaphor."

It was also the video that finally convinced me LG15 was fictional.

VanillaFlava wrote:Poor Pluto would still hold up better than Yellow Snow, tough, don't you think?

In what respect? They were trying to do very different things.

VanillaFlava wrote:THis is where I strongly disagree. If the individual videos were not to be worthwhile in and of themselves, by your theory we could probably skip about half of them and still appreciate the greater context. But what is the point of making them, then. Sure, the greater story is important, and sure the puzzeling together of individual clips creates the tapestry of the story. But I think, it is a major achievement if the individual clips have entertainment value of their own.

Well, I think most of the individual clips do have entertainment value of their own. I'll also pick three vids at random and explain what I think they've got:

"Looking For Daniel" -- Alright, bad example. This video, "Sleepover," and "Cowboy" should have all been one video (with "Sleepover" removed), immediately followed by "Miss Me?". This one really did just slow things down.

"The Unthinkable Happened" -- Nice bonding moment between Jonas and Daniel, good editing, directing, and a big development in the story.

"Foosball Battle" -- Some of the funniest lines in the entire series. More bonding between Jonas and Daniel.


In any event, as I mentioned earlier (using your three examples) this story unfolds in an episodic manner. There's no way a 3-minute video could have brought up this entire scenario and resolved it within the same period of time. Each video is - usually - another step.

VanillaFlava wrote:Most of the early ones, were written so they would contribute to the story at large, while still providing a narrative that would be missed if you had skipped it.

The self-contained videos didn't really have a "story at large" to contribute to as I see it. Except for when she and Daniel weren't getting along, one could have almost entirely avoided the videos and not been any less informed of the story - such as it was then - for doing so. The other vids were, of course, entertaining, but, really, I don't feel they were what one would consider vital steps in moving from Point A to Point B.

VanillaFlava wrote:Nowadays, I find myself skipping, or stopping episodes midway, and not feel I have missed much at all. I sometimes go back later, to see if a gem was hidden in there after all, and so far, I have not been rewarded a single time.

No offense, but if you're not watching them all the way through (and in their proper context; the second half of "Jonas Sucks," for instance, before the videos that came after) how can you really offer informed judgment on them? You're aware of their details now, yes, but looking at them in retrospective comparison to later details which you've already learned.

VanillaFlava wrote:Exactly! I am not asking to go back to square one. That wouldn't work, nor could it have been sustained forever. But it feels, like they switched from first into fifth gear, while pressing hard on the accelerator, and I do not see why it would have been necessary.

As before, we're in agreement here. It wasn't necessary.

VanillaFlava wrote:Less is definately more. If pressed, I would probably say it should have revolved around the things we see in the episdoe in the park and the ceremony.

I think that could have kept it more engaging. Kind of like the Shyamalan film, "Signs." The Earth was being invaded by aliens, but instead of taking an "Independence Day" approach (which I still think is a great movie), it focused on one family and how they dealt with the whole thing. Small-scale approaches often do work magnificently, and it can be quite jarring when the scale - or even the perceived relevance within the small scale - shifts.

While events still are focused pretty tightly around Bree and her friends, I will acknowledge that one gets the impression that whatever happens with them could have wide-ranging effects on other people they'll never even meet.

VanillaFlava wrote:

Lurker wrote:It could have been like the Pride in "Runaways." They controlled LA, but their power outside LA was pretty much non-existent. Other criminals just knew better than to try staking out some ground on the Pride's turf.

Never seen that, but I trust your judgement.

It's a comic book series by Brian K. Vaughan about a group of teenagers who find out their parents are super-villains that control Los Angeles - so they run away from home and resolve to right their parents' wrongs and eventually take them down. That refers specifically to its first 18-issue arc.

VanillaFlava wrote:I am too lazy to dig out the post out of the bowels of the forum right now, but they actually admitted themselves to have production and writing problems caused by resource and time constraints when confronted with the quality of the show.

I've seen the post in question, but I don't think time or resource constraints contributed to a decision to give the Order what is apparently worldwide influence as opposed to local influence. If anything, I would think fewer resources would encourage the latter option.

VanillaFlava wrote:Just some short remarks, since we are debating LG15, not Tolkien. While he said he found the deliberate use of allegory distasteful (like C.S. Lewis' heavy-handed catholicism), he also admitted that it is all through-out his writing, and that it is an inherent element of myth-building.

I know he said this, but we were discussing "story devices [used] to deliver a more subtle message," and I was just pointing out that it was never his intention to use an alleogry sledgehammer like C.S. Lewis.

VanillaFlava wrote:To me it seems, in most of the current material there is only the apparent layer. If there is something else in there, it is only as a vehicle for ARG clues, or things put in for effect. I can hardly find any other meaning behind the content of the later material. That is precisely why I liked the earlier vids better. They at least gave me something to think about. Now, I just need to watch, as I am being led by the nose from plot point to plot point.

I agree that symbolism is fun, and trying to say something can really be the factor that makes something not just entertaining but truly special (the "V for Vendetta" movie is a good example), but it's not always used. Though I personally prefer it, sometimes the lack of it isn't so bad. Harry Potter books, for instance, aren't trying to say anything as far as I can tell, but they're highly enjoyable to me nonetheless.

I would say, though, that not using more of it in LG15 - perhaps as social commentary - would be a missed opportunity. Obviously names like "Daniel," "Beast," "Alex," "Lucy" and "Jonas" have some degree of symbolism to them, but I don't think that's what you and I were focused on here.

VanillaFlava wrote:When it comes to Wheddon, I am a firm believer in Firefly though! I think he's good in mixing stale genres with some cross-over elements to bring them to life again.

He is quite talented, yes. By the way, he's supposed to start writing the "Runaways" book I mentioned. I'm not sure if it that will be good or bad, though. He's a great writer and terrific at character moments (and also a huge fan of "Runaways" himself), but since these characters aren't his creations, I'm not sure how things will go. I wish Vaughan could have stayed with it or finished it (obviously, though, Marvel Comics isn't going to put a marketable brand to dignified rest when it's still at its best and most profitable).

VanillaFlava wrote:All that being said, I like the current Uncle Dean vid. Aside of the taxing Dogme 95 camera, there certainly is moe going on that meets the eye. Less helicopters and sunglass-baddies, and more of this please!

These two previous videos were pretty good, yeah. Lots of nice character moments, and I feel like it's taking the plot somewhere. It was also nice how they were shown from Jonas and Daniel's different perspectives. It was an interesting way of presenting story details.

VanillaFlava wrote:The startling thing is, that on this forum, the ARG seems to be the main attraction.

It might look that way if you aren't here too often, but it's really not the case. Most of us aren't interested in the ARG for the sake of the game, actually (saying that has gotten me into trouble before, but it's the truth). We're just interested in whatever additional story elements it will offer (lately, those have been few, as you might guess).

HyeMew wrote:PERFECT! This is IT! This sums up everything I have ever said in this entire thread in one concise paragraph! THIS is what is wrong with the show now. There's one layer to it, the blatant plot and that's it. There's no allusion, not much entertainment, just an unfolding singular storyline. While before we watched LG15 for a good story and to be entertained, now we just watch for a story, and there's just no there there.

As said above, I would like to see a little more allegory involved personally, but my early experience with LG15 was quite different. I watched the early vids solely to be entertained, expecting next to no story at all (I still maintain that there was hardly one to speak of until the ominous stuff about the Order began to come into play).

immortal1 wrote:Mostly it's in reference to holes in logic. I guarantee when the audience learned Jonas and Daniel were picking up Alex the majority of us asked "when did they get in touch?"

Jonas told us at the end of "My Hand Hurts" that he was about to try getting in contact with her. There was no cause for confusion there that I could see.

immortal1 wrote:And next, how did Jonas explain why they were there and why wasn't their an acknowledgement of all the time that had passed either verbally or visually in how they acted toward one an other?

The camera wasn't on them when they were reunited. They would have had their acknowledgement of the time that passed off-screen.

Who knows how he explained why they were there, though. I guess it depends on how far from his place she lives.

I guess we're veering off course a little here, but then again, I think I answered Lurker's prominent question as best as I possibly can, and the name of the thread suggests that we are discussing how best to move past the present on all fronts.

What has me really concerned about that soundbite is that now the ARG is supposed to be central to the LG15 story. Let's reminisce for a moment here.

- In the beginning the creators stated that they wanted to include an ARG, but felt they needed more time before this could be done correctly.

- CiW blasted onto the scene, only to fade away in less than a blaze of glory. It created an intense frenzy on here, only to alienate some people elsewhere. Taking the YouTube numbers as an indicator to the size of the total audience, feelings one way or another seem only a drop in the bucket, however.

- Several other ARG contenders appeared, with OpAphid emerging as the most polished voice among them.

- The creators say, that it will now be part of the experience but wholly optional and not required to follow the show.

- This time, the ARG does go out in a blaze of ... well ... something.

- Now, however, the ARG is supposed to be central and this is a significant development?

I find that unsettling. I fear that the activity the ARG elements create on this forum, as opposed to the normal story, may suggest to them that this is what truly represents the franchises means of survival. Especially at a time, when even here, a poll asking whether people still cared comes out at 86% in opposition.

http://www.lonelygirl15.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5518

I am interested in ARGs as well. I truly enjoy and am constantly curious about interactive storytelling. It is just there have been so many changes of direction, and upheavels on the LG15 franchise already. All performed with less than surgical precision, that I am not feeling all too easy about this recent anouncement.

VanillaFlava wrote:I guess we're veering off course a little here, but then again, I think I answered Lurker's prominent question as best as I possibly can, and the name of the thread suggests that we are discussing how best to move past the present on all fronts.

I appreciate your attempt. I still don't see what you see (even as much as I love metaphors or allegory I didn't find their few uses so far in LG15 to be compelling), but I appreciate the attempt and thank you for discussing it.

VanillaFlava wrote:What has me really concerned about that soundbite is that now the ARG is supposed to be central to the LG15 story.

This worries me too. The ARG gradually became pivotal to fully understanding LG15 anyway - but I would have never used the word "central" to describe it before. So, yeah, worried now.

Lurker wrote:

immortal1 wrote:Mostly it's in reference to holes in logic. I guarantee when the audience learned Jonas and Daniel were picking up Alex the majority of us asked "when did they get in touch?"

Jonas told us at the end of "My Hand Hurts" that he was about to try getting in contact with her. There was no cause for confusion there that I could see.

I completely and totally missed that. Although it was a bit of a throw away line at the end still bad job by me.

Lurker wrote:

immortal1 wrote:And next, how did Jonas explain why they were there and why wasn't their an acknowledgement of all the time that had passed either verbally or visually in how they acted toward one an other?

The camera wasn't on them when they were reunited. They would have had their acknowledgement of the time that passed off-screen.

Who knows how he explained why they were there, though. I guess it depends on how far from his place she lives.

I think my point still stands. To even to go from "I'm going to see if I can get in touch with my Aunt" to picking her up at the airport still leaves the audience unsatisfied and leaves questions. A lot of times we justify things by assuming things happened-personally when I view unless I see it I assume it didn't happen.

immortal1 wrote:I think my point still stands. To even to go from "I'm going to see if I can get in touch with my Aunt" to picking her up at the airport still leaves the audience unsatisfied and leaves questions. A lot of times we justify things by assuming things happened-personally when I view unless I see it I assume it didn't happen.

Well, we really can't use that approach with this kind of storytelling, you know? For instance, we didn't see them find that document written by Jonas' dad or the strife between them ending while at the cabin, but we know they found it and that it must have played a major role in why they stopped fighting.

I will say, though, that sometimes it seems like some of the more important moments aren't shown - including some that would, as you've said, enhance understanding.

Lurker wrote:

VanillaFlava wrote:What has me really concerned about that soundbite is that now the ARG is supposed to be central to the LG15 story.

This worries me too. The ARG gradually became pivotal to fully understanding LG15 anyway - but I would have never used the word "central" to describe it before. So, yeah, worried now.

I too am worried about this. Creators are you reading this? You promised us who had NOT followed OpAphid before it was canon we would not have to go back and learn it, it would only be an accessory to the show, not a central part of it. Now suddenly knowing OpAphid seems to be mandatory. WHY? Explain yourself to your non-OpAphid fans please.

Whoops, we were a bit out of sync here, I am moving my response down here ... oh no, watch me pour salt on healed wounds yet again

Lurker wrote: Around the time the concept of Cassie was introduced is when the style was beginning its shift. The very next video had the "10/12/06" thing, and then the one after that let us know that a ceremony was coming (everyone, of course, made the connection between the date and mention of the ceremony). The religion and the ceremony began looking really shady really quick (such that it seemed to be the intent).

Yup, there was certainly a shift there. They changed the format of the storytelling, it was still subtle, however. I actually made a video response to A Change In My Life on YouTube, as I had come to the same conclusion as you had. If you want to cringe at my l33t Moviemaker skillz:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO-lx8nXFw8

At that time, I reckoned LG15 might have been viral media to promote the Wicker Man remake.

I didn't mind the change. I actually liked the brief period between this and the next shift, i.e. the actual ceremony. Sure, they could have pulled the rug out from under people and portrayed the Order as benign. But really, would that have been worse than the lame non-event that they presented us with after all the hype? The story explanation for the abortive ceremony was even more uninspired, and really reactionary to the audiences disappointment, in my opinion.

Lurker wrote: On the matter of the three videos you selected at random, though, what you didn't mention is that each played its part in advancing the story.

I didn't say they were completely void of any merit. Hyemew and I am arguing that the newer episodes are one-dimensional, however.

Lurker wrote: "For The Ladies," while being full of funny moments, also moved things along in that it got Daniel into a position to be kidnapped. "The Human Ransom" got Daniel back, had Bree do something for once, put Tachyon and Brother with the team briefly, and introduced the files Tachyon stole from the Order. "Yellow Snow" had the group heading up to Jonas' cabin where the files would be accessed, Jonas suspected of being a member of the Order, the discovery of the anti-Order would be made, Bree would begin doubting her abilities even more - and all of that puts us where the story currently is: Bree off with Tachyon, D&J with Alex.

Yes, I think you are inadvertently underlining my argument with these examples, namely:

- For the Ladies = plot advancement + some humour
- The Human Ransom = Plot Point + some snazzy editing and very nice digitally enhanced Bree and Daniel shots. (I just realised that longlosposter's avatar is lifted from that. Nice choice.)
- Yellow Snow = Transition from plot point A to plot point B, plus pretty snow

So, in essence, one layer. Plot. Plot. Plot.

OK, I just re-watched your three random picks. Again, I am not saying they are worthless, but all three are also just on one layer. Again. Plot advancement plus some chuckles.

Lurker wrote: In any event, as I mentioned earlier (using your three examples) this story unfolds in an episodic manner. There's no way a 3-minute video could have brought up this entire scenario and resolved it within the same period of time. Each video is - usually - another step.

Well, naturally. However, the vlog format, or the hybrid format following it, could have served very nicely to further the story too. LG15 is episodic in nature, that is not reserved for the later material. However, like Hyemew and I put forward, the earlier style tries to weave a denser web, at the expanse of faster moving plot. There is still plot in them for a good mix, in my opinion.

Lurker wrote: No offense, but if you're not watching them all the way through (and in their proper context; the second half of "Jonas Sucks," for instance, before the videos that came after) how can you really offer informed judgment on them? You're aware of their details now, yes, but looking at them in retrospective comparison to later details which you've already learned.

Possibly. I only skip when the episode bores me completely which happens every now and then these days. I do usually return out of guilt. While I now watch the show in a more haphazard way, I do not get the feeling that I suddenly am missing anything fundamental on the first viewing, nor that it affects my judgement on the show in a detrimental way, other than the fact that some episode bore me, when before I hungered for each LG15 snack.

Lurker wrote: I think that could have kept it more engaging. Kind of like the Shyamalan film, "Signs."

Now, Signs is an excellent example of how to build tension in an unexpected and highly effective way. Shyamalan is a hit&miss director, but he certainly watched his Hitchcock diligently. And when he hits, he hits hard. I would have loved to see LG15 approach its themes in such a fashion. Come to think of it, this would even allow for a parallel ARG, quite effectively.

For example, the story protagonists would not have so much direct confrontation with the opposition, but would certainly learn a thing or two while trying to stay afloat. Meanwhile the ARG vids could take a direct look at the opposition, maybe even following one of their operatives in pursuit of Team Bree. Neat seperation, and if done right, non-essential viewing, while still offering a unique and value-adding angle.

Lurker wrote: I appreciate your attempt. I still don't see what you see (even as much as I love metaphors or allegory I didn't find their few uses so far in LG15 to be compelling), but I appreciate the attempt and thank you for discussing it.

Oh sure, this is a very intersting conversation. We are not so far apart really, and I think I picked up on a thing or two through it. So, thank you for contributing here.

But to ask a question myself, my thought about current LG15 vs. old LG15 is that it is all plot all the time vs. multi-layered story-telling. Whether its allegory or other device. I think that it's ultimately dry and unengaging, unless the plot is so cool, it would make you forget the simplicity (which, sadly, it really isn't).

Do you agree that current LG15 is all plot? Or do you see something else going on there that maybe I don't see (excluding ARG embedded clues).

EDIT:

HyeMew wrote: I too am worried about this. Creators are you reading this?

Is anybody but us still reading this?

But actually, I would also like to have the offical response to this question. I find it somewhat unsettling, that the fans are not even told about this 'significant change' when it is already announced to the press. Unless, this was said more casually than it actually sounds.

If we get to have a voice in this, I would vote ARG sure, but wholly optional! What would they do if the third ARG blew up too, only this time it is the heart of the show and takes everything with it?

VanillaFlava wrote:If you want to cringe at my l33t Moviemaker skillz:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO-lx8nXFw8

At that time, I reckoned LG15 might have been viral media to promote the Wicker Man remake.

That was great! Not cringe-worthy in the least. Nicely done. Quite a bit of it was hilarious (the "Dawson's Creek" and Tom Cruise stuff were the best, though; I'm sure you know that already).

VanillaFlava wrote:Sure, they could have pulled the rug out from under people and portrayed the Order as benign. But really, would that have been worse than the lame non-event that they presented us with after all the hype?

Point taken.

VanillaFlava wrote:The story explanation for the abortive ceremony was even more uninspired, and really reactionary to the audiences disappointment, in my opinion.

I'm a little torn on this one. I'm inclined to believe they really planned it that way all along (apparently "Following The Helper" was actually already filmed by the time "The Ceremony" was posted).

VanillaFlava wrote:I didn't say they were completely void of any merit. Hyemew and I am arguing that the newer episodes are one-dimensional, however.

I apologize for the misunderstanding.

VanillaFlava wrote:Yes, I think you are inadvertently underlining my argument with these examples, namely:

...

So, in essence, one layer. Plot. Plot. Plot.

I've begun to understand the perspective you're approaching this with better.

I think most of the fans (probably me too) are just interested in seeing how the plot develops and eventually resolves. As long as it's entertaining, at least. Certainly the multi-layered stuff we've discussed would add a lot more to it, but I still think it's likable and enjoy it a lot.

VanillaFlava wrote:Possibly. I only skip when the episode bores me completely which happens every now and then these days. I do usually return out of guilt. While I now watch the show in a more haphazard way, I do not get the feeling that I suddenly am missing anything fundamental on the first viewing, nor that it affects my judgement on the show in a detrimental way...

Fair enough.

VanillaFlava wrote:For example, the story protagonists would not have so much direct confrontation with the opposition, but would certainly learn a thing or two while trying to stay afloat. Meanwhile the ARG vids could take a direct look at the opposition, maybe even following one of their operatives in pursuit of Team Bree. Neat seperation, and if done right, non-essential viewing, while still offering a unique and value-adding angle.

That's what I originally thought it was going to do with Tachyon and Brother. I expected there to be a merge eventually, but with either it being before a showdown to resolve all this, or with it happening and then Tachyon and Brother going back to doing more of the direct opposition stuff.

I think there was a major missed opportunity with not using the Ipod Opera people more. Maybe they'll still bring them in, but I think they could have been making use of them for a while now.

VanillaFlava wrote:Oh sure, this is a very intersting conversation. We are not so far apart really, and I think I picked up on a thing or two through it. So, thank you for contributing here.

Yeah, you're right. We agree more than either of us probably realized when we started.

VanillaFlava wrote:But to ask a question myself, my thought about current LG15 vs. old LG15 is that it is all plot all the time vs. multi-layered story-telling. Whether its allegory or other device. I think that it's ultimately dry and unengaging, unless the plot is so cool, it would make you forget the simplicity (which, sadly, it really isn't).

Do you agree that current LG15 is all plot? Or do you see something else going on there that maybe I don't see (excluding ARG embedded clues).

No, I'm not seeing any subtext that you're not seeing. I agree that there probably is none right now.

Which is unfortunate. I agree with you that there were devices for implementing subtext in the early videos, while there is none now, but, unfortunately, I don't think what it was being used for when it was actually here was relevant enough to make its use interesting - whereas it probably could be now, when it isn't present.

That said, I am enjoying this plot and continue to look forward to how it develops, regardless of whether we see some kind of subtext established (unless the plot itself were to become awful; but I'm not worried about that happening right now; like I say, I think it's been at its best of late).

VanillaFlava wrote:Is anybody but us still reading this?

I'm thinking no. We're probably too into this and too longwinded for anyone else's tastes.

VanillaFlava wrote:But actually, I would also like to have the offical response to this question. I find it somewhat unsettling, that the fans are not even told about this 'significant change' when it is already announced to the press. Unless, this was said more casually than it actually sounds.

I'm hoping that's what happened. He may not have meant that it's going to be the crux of the whole thing and was just describing it that way to emphasize significance to someone that may not have the familiarity with the series that we do - or that may have been the writer paraphrasing what Greg said with a word that doesn't necessarily fit what he meant.

VanillaFlava wrote:If we get to have a voice in this, I would vote ARG sure, but wholly optional! What would they do if the third ARG blew up too, only this time it is the heart of the show and takes everything with it?

That would be bad. This last blow-up alone could have been bad enough (the full effects of it may not even yet be known). I don't want to think about another one if the ARG were central.

In quick response, yes, I am reading and loving your analysis. I beg of you to continue to urge the creators toward actual charactor development and away from the 1001 and nights of Scheherazade. I can no longer abide the Children's Hour, or "Laguna Hills" meets "Buffy". This show began with such promise and has degenerated due too much input from fans. Must it happen this way? Storytelling has centuries of excellence to cull from, you gentlement are providing excellent arguments to egg on our creators and I beg you not cease until they change their easy solutions to finer choices. I have never found a medium more satisfying than books with it's fillup of imagination but hope for a future genius to provide the next generation with something new. I began watching out of curiousity wondering if this had potential to entertain more completely my children or granchildren but so far I haven't seen the promise fulfilled. There is much to build on, but this series keeps moving backwards, fulfilling the common goals of bread and circuses, another television type show. That is all our tiny minds envision for them, that is all they will provide. We need to think larger, ask for more, and not just for mid level drama , like Tolkien. (Seriously. If we are going to speak of great drama we must think larger than an entertaining children's book that adults enjoy as a morality tale! Someone mentioned Homer, and I don't want to play favorites, but I'd start with Milton.) Tolkien also has been Done to Death. I want the charm of something new, something elegant and interesting, something charming. It can be the same material repeated but it must be done well. That isn't happening. We're being given what the masses want. That will not be enough, I'm afraid to break through to the next level.
I tried to ask friends of children and family about LG15, but they've moved on. The charm of the new has passed for them, and some of them don't remember even watching. I don't want to see this perish entirely.
I'm an artist, a singer and performer as well as a prolific reader. I've read at least 6 or 7 books a week all my life, usually more. I'm a classically trained opera singer, which requires years of training and after children I gave it up to teach and just perform occasionally.
I'm married to a classical musician, too. I know the risks art requires. Real art requires heart stopping moments, and this series took risks, small ones, at the start. It now is trying to play safe with the audience. It cannot remain both art and safe simultaneously and suceed. Risk is a required part of every performance, although carefully controlled and practiced, and it may be that the lack of experience of the Creators will be the problem in the end. Or the problems as they arise, and the creative solutions (for that is art, the choices we make in each moment) will make the series beautiful in the end. I don't know why I still hope. I see the pedestrian choices and my heart sinks. I want this show to suceed. I want very much for it to be completely beautiful in its own way. All that's needed is belief in their own vision and commitment to their own choices to suceed.