Jnineteen (Jay 19) MySpace

[lg15panda]

I think that the quote is implying that Man is simultaneously both the raw material (Prime Matter) and the Forger of the raw material (Athanor) that is used to create the important end product (The Work). In a metaphor sense, if we consider that "The Work" is the idea in alchemy to turn lead into gold, then Man is both the lead and the alchemist. From a god's perspective, Man is both a Creation as well as an Instrument to make an even more important Creation.

Then again, I'm not into Thelema so I don't really know.

[ignatzmouse]

One thing that strikes me as odd about J19's story is that it doesn't gel with Walter's presentation of Facility J.

The impression I'd gotten from Walter (via TJ19) is that Facility J was largely staffed by scientists in lab coats going about doing their project for the good of the country, the advancement of science, etc. There was a strict need-to-know policy about the big picture goals, and indeed most people working there would never have even known there was a big picture, they'd just be working on the next research grant. Only the top brass of OPA Research (and presumably the suitably shadowy Government Conspiracy) would know about the connection with The Order's dubious pseduo-religion. It's not obvious even how much of this Walter knew while he was working there, I don't think he's ever mentioned The Order / HoO.

Now J19 is saying that he worked for Walter, and he's jumping straight in with the connection to The Order / HoO, pseudo-religion, Crowley, etc. Hmm, something's wrong with this picture. I don't think that anyone working in a regular research position at Facility J would be trusted with that sort of information.

One possibility is that J19 worked this stuff out afterwards, probably when he was contacted recently by Walter. He may have found out about LG15.com (ooh, he could be reading this message) and realized that OPA Research is connected into the shadowy etc.

Or (dum dum dum) he might have been an Order plant all along, put in place to keep an eye on Walter and co to make sure they stayed in the dark. Now, he might have had a change of heart, and realized that maybe Curing Mankind isn't the greatest idea in the world, or... hmm, are we the ones being played?

[deagol]

He didn't work for Walter.

I was an intern and eventually a researcher with Walter at the facility. I know as much if not more about the project than he. [my emphasis]

Can "The Work" be interpreted in a genetic engineering context? Obviously there's a lot of trans-mutation going on at the gene level. Alchemy is an unlimited source of speculation, but I know a big part of it was a quest for immortality (philosopher's stone = fountain of youth, gold = uncorruptible metal, ageless).

Now, if Facility J had found a genetically engineered "cure" for aging and ultimately death, I think I'd be open to the idea of some people morally bent on destroying such a cure. I know I would be willing to listen to (and perhaps even agree with) any arguments against a future in which humankind had finally defeated death.

Lots of scientific, evolutionary, social, moral, philosophical and spiritual food for thought on this. Not to mention the multitude of literary/fantasy treatments.

[Musique]

Now, looks like this priestess had very special qualities. Bree? Ceremony-girls? And there's quite a lot of research about the reported and theorized risks to her life, a strong indication of drug induced hallucinations (ethylene).


But I still don't see the specific way in which FacilityJ and genetics are related. Why is Jay explaining away LG's plot holes? I hope he can eventually relate all this greek stuff with the vials, the J19, the vector, the cure, Walter and TJ's disappearance, etc.

More loose ends: what's with the alchemy stuff, the Athanor and The Work? I know that a lot of the techniques in chemistry came from alchemy, and some of the more out-there ideas have been applied in modern psychology, but to me most of that is an impenetrable mangle of "front-like," HoO-pushed cover-up material on top of some ideas that might involve real "inconvenient tuths", or even practical knowledge.

I think the Facility was in charge of making those "hallucinogenic" drugs in order to aid whomever was chosen for the ceremony. In addition to this, I feel they may have had a hand in the distribution of Epogen, and many others mass produced on the market and consumed by so many.


It could be, with these hallucinogenic drugs, whomever is chosen to perform this "ceremony" submits themselves to a drug-induced state in order to see the kinds of "visions" the Order may be hoping for. Or, perhaps the resulting rush or euphoria they experience is due to concentrated blood loss.


Many cultures do something similar, either with or without the use of hallucinogens. Shaker sisters hone their clairvoyance skills by sitting before large "Spirit Cabinets", which they claim aid them in contacting the beyond. Semazen, or Turkish dervishes, spin in circular ritual dances... an act of spiritual rebirth which they believe draws them even closer to God.


Whatever the purpose is... looks to me like the Oracle is scrying in that pic.

[ShardinsKitten]

Now, looks like this priestess had very special qualities. Bree? Ceremony-girls? And there's quite a lot of research about the reported and theorized risks to her life, a strong indication of drug induced hallucinations (ethylene).


But I still don't see the specific way in which FacilityJ and genetics are related. Why is Jay explaining away LG's plot holes? I hope he can eventually relate all this greek stuff with the vials, the J19, the vector, the cure, Walter and TJ's disappearance, etc.

More loose ends: what's with the alchemy stuff, the Athanor and The Work? I know that a lot of the techniques in chemistry came from alchemy, and some of the more out-there ideas have been applied in modern psychology, but to me most of that is an impenetrable mangle of "front-like," HoO-pushed cover-up material on top of some ideas that might involve real "inconvenient tuths", or even practical knowledge.

I think the Facility was in charge of making those "hallucinogenic" drugs in order to aid whomever was chosen for the ceremony. In addition to this, I feel they may have had a hand in the distribution of Epogen, and many others mass produced on the market and consumed by so many.


It could be, with these hallucinogenic drugs, whomever is chosen to perform this "ceremony" submits themselves to a drug-induced state in order to see the kinds of "visions" the Order may be hoping for. Or, perhaps the resulting rush or euphoria they experience is due to concentrated blood loss.


Many cultures do something similar, either with or without the use of hallucinogens. Shaker sisters hone their clairvoyance skills by sitting before large "Spirit Cabinets", which they claim aid them in contacting the beyond. Semazen, or Turkish dervishes, spin in circular ritual dances... an act of spiritual rebirth which they believe draws them even closer to God.


Whatever the purpose is... looks to me like the Oracle is scrying in that pic.

how does that tie into it being "the cure"? I mean they could have been doing that too, but I don't think that's what we have been destroying, that doesn't make sense to me at least.

[Musique]

how does that tie into it being "the cure"? I mean they could have been doing that too, but I don't think that's what we have been destroying, that doesn't make sense to me at least.

It doesn't make sense to me either, especially after seeing this:


http://www.spiralnature.com/bio/crowleya/acdrugs.html


Note how it reads, under the Treatment of Drug Habits... "The Law of Thelema is the cure."

[deagol]

Now, looks like this priestess had very special qualities. Bree? Ceremony-girls? And there's quite a lot of research about the reported and theorized risks to her life, a strong indication of drug induced hallucinations (ethylene).


But I still don't see the specific way in which FacilityJ and genetics are related. Why is Jay explaining away LG's plot holes? I hope he can eventually relate all this greek stuff with the vials, the J19, the vector, the cure, Walter and TJ's disappearance, etc.

More loose ends: what's with the alchemy stuff, the Athanor and The Work? I know that a lot of the techniques in chemistry came from alchemy, and some of the more out-there ideas have been applied in modern psychology, but to me most of that is an impenetrable mangle of "front-like," HoO-pushed cover-up material on top of some ideas that might involve real "inconvenient tuths", or even practical knowledge.

I think the Facility was in charge of making those "hallucinogenic" drugs in order to aid whomever was chosen for the ceremony. In addition to this, I feel they may have had a hand in the distribution of Epogen, and many others mass produced on the market and consumed by so many.


It could be, with these hallucinogenic drugs, whomever is chosen to perform this "ceremony" submits themselves to a drug-induced state in order to see the kinds of "visions" the Order may be hoping for. Or, perhaps the resulting rush or euphoria they experience is due to concentrated blood loss.


Many cultures do something similar, either with or without the use of hallucinogens. Shaker sisters hone their clairvoyance skills by sitting before large "Spirit Cabinets", which they claim aid them in contacting the beyond. Semazen, or Turkish dervishes, spin in circular ritual dances... an act of spiritual rebirth which they believe draws them even closer to God.


Whatever the purpose is... looks to me like the Oracle is scrying in that pic.

how does that tie into it being "the cure"? I mean they could have been doing that too, but I don't think that's what we have been destroying, that doesn't make sense to me at least.

I'm still having a hard time putting together what I'll call the three big themes here.

Greek Mythology/Delphi/Pythia ...psychotropic therapy?
ceremony girl? ritual? drugs? seeing the future? expression of the unconscious?
FacilityJ tie-in: drug manufacture, genetically engineered "cognizant daughters"??

Crowley/Thelema/HoO ...psychobabble?
cover up? employs alchemical ideas?
FacilityJ tie-in: "Thelema is the cure for drug addiction" ??? Why destroy it?

Alchemy/The Work ...archetypal psychology (Jung)?
chemistry? immortality? physical or spiritual?
FacilityJ tie-in: "the cure" to all humankind = genetically engineered physical immortality. Ethycally/morally unsound (evolutionary stagnation), hence the need to destroy it.

[ignatzmouse]

He didn't work for Walter.

I was an intern and eventually a researcher with Walter at the facility. I know as much if not more about the project than he. [my emphasis]

OK, that first sentence is ambiguous. I read it as he was an intern with Walter, meaning Walter was his supervisor, then he worked as a researcher. You could read it as they were interns together, but since Walter was born around 1920, he'd have been at least 25 when Facility J was formed, so wouldn't have been an intern. (He'd have been 21 in 1941, so most likely wouldn't have been a GI Bill student.)

IIRC, Walter rose up the ranks to become the manager of production, which is a more senior position than a researcher (at least as far as the org chart goes). Of course, J19 might have moved sideways to a different department -- from what he's written I'd guess he'd have been doing basic research rather than involved in the production challenges, so at that point he wouldn't have been working for Walter, and would indeed know more about the basic science of the project.

A lot of people will say "I worked with X on project Y" when (e.g.) X was the principal investigator on the project Y grant they were hired on.

So I still reckon J19's story is a bit weird: he didn't climb up the greasy pole of management at Facility J, so I'd have thought he'd have been kept in the dark about the goals of The Work.

Boy, this is a lot of writing to justify the word "for"

[deagol]

Profile updates:





"05/26" ...damn that's a long wait.

[TOSG]

It had better be better than 10/12/06.

[deagol]

I think he just wants to drop a vial or two around that date. In the meantime, we should keep our eyes open for any hints/clues/puzzle on the location.

[silverblue]

Why is J's age down as 75 on his myspace profile?

Isn't 75 supposed to be Walter's age, whereas J is a lot younger?

[deagol]

silverblue, this is yet a third character.

We first met 19 year-old Traveler J.
http://www.myspace.com/travelerj19 (enter VALINE as his last name to friend him)
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TravelerJ19

Then he sent us on a quest to find Walter, who's 87 (now 88!) years old.
http://www.myspace.com/walterdw (enter DABROWSKI as his last name to friend him)
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=WalterDW

Finally, we found 75 year-old Jay 19, this thread's subject.
http://www.myspace.com/jnineteen (enter VECTOR as his last name to friend him)
http://youtube.com/profile?user=jaynineteen

[ETA: I just noticed Walter's YT says 88 now, so his birthday must have been pretty recent. I think YT automatically updates the age based on the date of birth. A Taurus, I would guess.]

[ShardinsKitten]

Their contact info is also on the message archives threads, I did update to add Jay's last name to it.

26th is a long wait ahhhhh. Well at least I wont get wrapped up here and not get my training done lol.

I still guess I see more tie in's to LG's plot the facilityj plot with Jay. It seems like he is trying to convince us that he is legit, but I dunno.

I'm having a hard time as all of you in connecting all this.

As for that website found, it is funky... the effects of those drugs pleaseeeee. (well on some of them) I guess if it was supposed to be written so long ago they didn't have any real studies of them.

I'm just so confused and probably making no sense what-so-ever because of it lol.

[silverblue]

silverblue, this is yet a third character.

We first met 19 year-old Traveler J.
http://www.myspace.com/travelerj19 (enter VALINE as his last name to friend him)
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=TravelerJ19

Then he sent us on a quest to find Walter, who's 87 (now 88!) years old.
http://www.myspace.com/walterdw (enter DABROWSKI as his last name to friend him)
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=WalterDW

Finally, we found 75 year-old Jay 19, this thread's subject.
http://www.myspace.com/jnineteen (enter VECTOR as his last name to friend him)
http://youtube.com/profile?user=jaynineteen

[ETA: I just noticed Walter's YT says 88 now, so his birthday must have been pretty recent. I think YT automatically updates the age based on the date of birth. A Taurus, I would guess.]

Woah, that's weird. I always just assumed that Jay 19 was a gamejack taking over the character of J19... being the 19 year old J.

Uh... how dumb do I feel?