Lonelygirl15

I just happen to have the perfect Mean Girls icon thingy for ya, then.

Kasdeja wrote:I just happen to have the perfect Mean Girls icon thingy for ya, then.

Oh how did you know that I was just about to shave my back after I got off the internet...thanks for reminding me. LOL!

That's what I'm good for.

I was married in the Temple, baptised on behalf of the dead in the Temple and at one time was a very devoted member of the LDS church. The temple is off limits to non-members because it is a very holy place, not because the ceremonies are "strange" and secretive. Bree isn't LDS. If she were, the picture on her wall would be Joseph Smith and there wouldn't be an altar to him.

One off-topic question for Penny or any other knowledgable but not judgmental LDS member on these boards. I was excommunicated for apostasy not too long ago (probably wouldn't have happened if the stake pres. hadn't been prying into my life enough that I told him off, but that's beside the point). Does the excommunication invalidate the temple marriage? We were divorced almost seven years ago, but I know that the church doesn't recognize a secular divorce when the marriage was sealed in the temple.

I haven't attended church services since my divorce and have instead found my own truth. However, I still believe in much of the religion although I refuse to repent for my questioning nature. I just realize how little I knew about excommunication and the church's beliefs about excommunication and temple marriages, etc. If someone can answer my question, feel free to PM me. If you need more info I can share in PM rather than on the boards. I'd just like to find someone who is willing to provide answers without judging. Thank you.

She is not mormon, mormons have very strict modesty guidelines and she has worn several sleeveless shirts, modesty guidelines within the mormon church must be at least short sleeved.

Mormons are not creepy, cult-ish, or any other negative thing, most are wonderful people who want nothing more that to do good. Please do not disrespect a religion that many of you probably do not know much about and who's members have done nothing to you.

tallchicka wrote:She is not mormon, mormons have very strict modesty guidelines and she has worn several sleeveless shirts, modesty guidelines within the mormon church must be at least short sleeved.

Mormons are not creepy, cult-ish, or any other negative thing, most are wonderful people who want nothing more that to do good. Please do not disrespect a religion that many of you probably do not know much about and who's members have done nothing to you.

Good point about the modesty guidelines. Sure, some Mormons do wear tank tops, but those who are really into the church keep themselves covered. Bree is really into her religion, so if she were LDS, she wouldn't be vlogging in clothing that reveals her shoulders and she definitely wouldn't be outside in nothing but a sports bra.

Penny wrote:

JerseyJohnny wrote: Actually, my culture has been the victim of that for the last 2000 years, since Christ's apostles brought the Gospel to our nation. We have been persecuted and slaughtered for our beliefs and have been outcasts in that region for centuries.

What you say is true...christians have been treated horribly for thousands of years. The thing is, all of the things that happened to the members of the LDS church happened in the United States and not that long ago. Christians are supposed to be Christlike. There is nothing Christlike about ordering the extermination of people because of their beliefs.

So what? Half of my people, over 1.5 million, were exterminated for being Christians in 1917. But you don't find our Church leaders making statements against Islam, even though those who killed us were muslims. Brigham Young and the other Mormon leaders who made such nasty statements about Christians made it clear that they are not part of Christianity and don't want to be part of Christianity.

Furthermore, the Mormons brought it upon themselves, raising up an army of "Danites" who killed entire towns of people in Missouri, to the point where the Governor called out the Missouri State Militia to drive them away and protect Americans. So it was not "Christianity" that even fought back against the Mormons, it was the Government. So why does Brigham Young attack "Christianity"??? Because he hates it. What happened to the mormons in Missouri was a case of the mormons instigating a war and then crying "victim" and "persecution" when they lost that war. Then the mormon leaders use it to attack Christians. Do the research if you don't believe me. Try reading up on the Mountain Meadows Massacre, while you're at it.

Penny wrote:

JerseyJohnny wrote: That was my point all along. I'm still unsure why you hate being called "not Christian" when "Jesus Christ" is not your god, but one of your gods, and your gods are only 3 of many, many gods (i.e. the council of gods) that your religion believes in. So I just don't understand it, I guess.

You are right, you just don't understand. We don't worship millions of different Gods. We worship God (Heavenly father - same God from the Bible) and we worship Jesus Christ. THAT IS IT. We do want to be called LDS or actually The Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday saints. I suppose the whole not being categorized as christian is what gets me. Whatever, its fine...I am over it.

I never said "millions of different gods" - you just said that now. I said you worship THREE gods. You mentioned you worship two - "Heavenly Father" and "Jesus Christ". So you're twisting what I'm saying. Do you believe there are many, many other gods other than the 2 or 3 you worship? And, if you DO want to be called LDS then why are you also insisting on being called "Christian"??? Why would it bother you for me or anyone to specify that you're not Christian, but instead that you're "LDS"??? Why do you want to be categorized as "Christian"?? Your leaders made it clear that they do NOT want to be categorized with Christianity, they call Christianity a pack of lies, hatched in hell, from the devil, and Christians who believe it are as ignorant as the brute beast. Why would you want to be in the same category??? You're right, I don't understand it. But I know I don't understand it. I don't think you understand it at all and that's why you can't explain it.

Penny wrote:

JerseyJohnny wrote: First off, I thought I made it clear that my "attack" on Thelema was in jest. Anyway, I don't worship anyone's right to worship anything. Disagreement is not attack. Dialogue is not attack. I don't see why you think it's OK for you to say that you disagree with Thelema and that's not an attack, but my disagreement with any belief is an attack. That's a double standard.

Disagreement isn't an attack, I totally agree. The thing is, you post stuff supposing that you know everything about a religion because you read stuff on the internet. Some of the stuff you say is totally wrong. I mean really wrong. I don't think you should be schooling people about the LDS church.

I don't suppose I know "everything", I suppose I know that which I know. And if I'm wrong, I'm open to someone correcting me, but if you're going to correct me I will need some logic and some evidence. That shouldn't be too much to ask for. I provide evidence and logic to back up what I suppose I know, so I expect the same if I'm going to be corrected by anyone. And I'm not "schooling" anyone, I'm stating what I know. If I'm wrong, you're free to correct me. But disagreeing with me isn't going to convince me or anyone that the facts I provide are wrong.

What have I said that is "really wrong"??? Please feel free to point it out to me and provide the reasoning, with some kind of evidence beyond your own opinion, that what I'm saying is wrong. I've provided as proof the words of your own religion's leaders. I would think that would be good enough proof for you.

Penny wrote:

JerseyJohnny wrote: The LDS Church doesn't practice it, but it did. And the founder of the LDS Church, Joseph Smith, started the practice. And Brigham Young continued it. And both men married girls who were 14. So I'm never sure why today's LDS seem to have a problem with Warren Jeffs. The only problem I can see that the LDS have with Warren Jeffs is that he is not part of the official LDS Church, but part of a splinter LDS group. But as far as his polygamy, it's not any different from what Joseph Smith and Brigham Young did, and both those men are held in very high regard in the Traditional LDS Church. Heck, the LDS Church named their university after Brigham Young - BYU!!! Maybe one day there will be a WJU - Warren Jeffs University - founded by the FLDS???

Okay, yeah polygamy is part of my churches history. Not a secret. We don't practice it anymore. If a member of our church tries to live a polygamist lifestyle they are excommunicated. I don't like polygamy but we don't practice it anymore, END OF STORY. As far as these men marrying young girls, that wasn't abnormal back then (The abnormal thing was polygamy). We have a problem with Warren Jeffs for the same reason everyone else does. I don't think I need to explain myself here.

Actually it was abnormal to marry girls that young back then. Back then, women didn't begin menstruation until 16 to 18 years of age. Most women didn't marry until after 20, although there were many who married at 18 and 19. The few who did marry earlier than that, almost always married men within a few years of their age, NOT 40+ year old men like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. What those men did was considered appalling back then. If you don't believe me, then read what Emma Smith, Joseph Smith's wife, said about it in her writings. It was one of the reasons she left the religion and went with the FLDS, with her son.

So I think you do need to explain why you have a problem with Warren Jeffs doing basically what was done by your own prophet Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, the man your religion named its University after. Looks to me like Warren Jeffs is simply following in the tradition of what your two most respected Mormon leaders did. Funny how you apply the double standard that it's OK for JS and BY but not for Warren Jeffs.

Penny wrote:

JerseyJohnny wrote: I never said you worship satan or have sexual ceremonies, although you do have rituals that are copied from Freemasonry. And your symbolism, again, is masonic and occultic. For example, right now you probably have on special underwear that has a compass and square on it - those are masonic symbols. And they have sexual meanings within Masonry. The compass is the male principle and the square is the female principle (use your imagination and it will make sense why they arrange them the way they do). In any case, I believe that the Mormon church practices just as the Masons do in revealing only so much at a time to people about what all the symbols really mean. But that's just what I believe based on what I've researched, I could be wrong.

I know you never said that we worship satan or have sexual ceremonies. I just put it there in case anyone was wondering if that is what we do. I know where our ceremonies come from. I know what the symbols mean. We can talk about whatever we want in the Temple. There are no secrets. IT is Sacred.

If it is not secret then why isn't it shared with the outside world? Occult religions, like thelema, freemasonry, witchcraft, etc. all have secret (hidden, or occult) information which they will only share with those they deem "worthy" with which to share the information. That is the same situation with the Mormon rites and information. They don't want to share it. So you are LIKE the other occult groups in that respect. In Christianity, there is NOTHING that is off limits to the outside world. You can go into any Christian Church, Roman Catholic to Baptist to Orthodox, whatever, and nothing is kept hidden or secret from you. Nobody is considered more "worthy" than another. All people are sinners, all people are equally covered by God's Grace. That's Christianity. That's not how it is in Mormonism, though.

Penny wrote:

JerseyJohnny wrote: Those would be fighting words, but I don't recall calling you (mormons) liars. But if I did, then I apologize for that and it was wrong of me. In any case, I hope you have reached a new understanding based on all this dialog, as I have.

So I was too lazy to go back and copy what you actually said and put it in my last post. Here it is:

JerseyJohnny wrote: When a religion is deceitful and misleading as the Mormon Church is, it's time to stop respecting that religion, so that's the point I'm at with them. Sorry if that rubs you the wrong way. You really ought to start examining things with a more open mind regarding your Mormon religion.

Thanks for finding that. It proves that I didn't call anyone a "liar". It's a shame you accused me of calling mormons "liars" when in fact I hadn't.

Sfonzarelli wrote:

JerseyJohnny wrote:These are not atypical for a Christian organization, in fact they are actually heretical. These are what separate non-Christians from Christians, and that is agreed upon throughout orthodox Christianity, from Baptists to Catholics to Orthodox to Methodists. The whole point is that Mormons are not "Christian", their founders and leaders make it clear that they are against "Christianity", and it is a recent phenomena that the Mormons consider themselves "Christian" at all.

Whatever, as long as you recognize thant orthdox Christianity, from Baptism, to Catholicism, to Orthodox, to Methodism, is actually the mutation.

I don't "recognize that orthodox Christianity...is actually the mutation." I'm sorry your comprehension skills are so poor.

I've been wondering that...mutation of WHAT exactly?

Kasdeja wrote:I've been wondering that...mutation of WHAT exactly?

The X-gene.

FASTBALL SPECIAL, PETEY!

i think sfonzarelli meant that the Orthodox Christian religion didn't come first in Christianity either. first, there was Jesus's direct teaching, which developed over decades after his death into Catholicism, and the Orthodox branch didn't really exist until the split in the Roman Empire, after Catholicism was already established. then we got all the protestant religions after that breaking off from Catholicism. he was probably just saying that JJ's own religion also does its own share of twisting the actual teachings of Jesus- hence the "mutation" thing. just my reading of it.

JJ- you said "So I think you do need to explain why you have a problem with Warren Jeffs doing basically what was done by your own prophet Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, the man your religion named its University after. Looks to me like Warren Jeffs is simply following in the tradition of what your two most respected Mormon leaders did. Funny how you apply the double standard that it's OK for JS and BY but not for Warren Jeffs."

there are plenty of things in the history of Christianity that honored people did that would be considered wrong by any Christian today- hello, Crusades? i could give lots of well-researched examples if i had the time, but i'm actually supposed to be doing homework right now. this statement just really rubbed me the wrong way because there are mistakes and problems in the history and DOCTRINE of every religion (not to mention country), ESPECIALLY Christianity. please don't try and say "well yes, but i'm not Catholic..." because i'm not either, i'm Presbyterian, and saying that you're not connected with the past mistakes of the Catholic Church is a cop-out. at some point, every denomination's history merges with Catholic history.

standards change, science advances, shit happens that changes people's points of view and the doctrine changes to fit it. that's DEFINITELY not something unique to LDS.

Ugh! Jersy johnny...I really am done here. This game was kind of fun at first but seriously, I don't have to defend my religion to you or anyone else for that matter. If we were having a conversation for the sake of understanding and appreciating eachothers differences then I would say that it would be worthwhile to continue this conversation. My religion is basicly on trial here and I don't appreciate it.

I am here to theorize about LG15 and that is it. If I wanted to discuss my religion with someone who already has their mind made up that I am an evil person then I would go to any anti-mormon website on the internet.

So you didn't call us "liars" but "deceit" is pretty much the samething. Misleading; LIES...If you think we are deceitful then that's your problem. Some of your "info" about my church is deceitful. Stop spreading your brand of "truth" about my religion. I know much more about my church then you could even imagine.

OH, and what goes on in our Temples is SACRED not SECRET, I don't know how I can get that through your thick head. If you have a problem with not knowing what goes on in our temples then you should join our church and when you are able to enter the temple (not too difficult to do really) you will be able to say, "oh, now I get what she was saying, it isn't SECRET but it is SACRED" and then you will say "oh, is that it? no dancing naked around an alter? no blood drinking? no satan worshipping? dang, that was very plain, simple and to the point". WE GO THERE TO LEARN, WE GO THERE TO DO SERVICE, WE GO THERE TO BE CLOSER TO HEAVENLY FATHER and JESUS CHRIST (YEAH, we believe they are seperate...Why don't you come over here and burn a cross on my lawn for believing that)...if you have a problem with us keeping our sacred things from the world (not casting our pearls before SWINE) then deal with it.

By the way, Emma Smith was a wonderful woman who endured more trials then any other woman I have ever learned about. I know what she said and I know what she did...my church doesn't cover up any of it's history. If we want to read about it we do...And just so you know EMMA SMITH joined the RLDS CHURCH not the FLDS church...There is a difference.

There are a ton of other things I could pick apart about your "information" but I won't since there isn't enough time in the day.

Don't go talking about EMMA SMITH when you know so little about her.

Hannahbee wrote: i think sfonzarelli meant that the Orthodox Christian religion didn't come first in Christianity either. first, there was Jesus's direct teaching, which developed over decades after his death into Catholicism, and the Orthodox branch didn't really exist until the split in the Roman Empire, after Catholicism was already established. then we got all the protestant religions after that breaking off from Catholicism. he was probably just saying that JJ's own religion also does its own share of twisting the actual teachings of Jesus- hence the "mutation" thing. just my reading of it.

You obviously either know little about Christianity, or were taught with a Western/Catholic bias. To say that "Orthodoxy didn't exist until the split in the Roman Empire" is like saying that England didn't exist until the split from the colonies. Furthermore, you misuse the term "Catholicism". I'm presuming, based on the context of what you wrote, that you are referring to Roman Catholicism. "Catholicism" and "Roman Catholicism" are different things, although typically they are used interchangeably in common parlance. But when you are making declarations about the history of Christianity, you need to be more specific. Orthodoxy and Catholicism are the same. Roman Catholicism is a schism from traditional Catholicsm, which is more commonly called Orthodoxy.

Hannahbee wrote: JJ- you said "So I think you do need to explain why you have a problem with Warren Jeffs doing basically what was done by your own prophet Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, the man your religion named its University after. Looks to me like Warren Jeffs is simply following in the tradition of what your two most respected Mormon leaders did. Funny how you apply the double standard that it's OK for JS and BY but not for Warren Jeffs."

there are plenty of things in the history of Christianity that honored people did that would be considered wrong by any Christian today- hello, Crusades?

More ignorance on your part. First of all, the Crusades is a very poor example on many counts. The main contention I have with you on that is your assertion that "any Christian today" would consider the Crusades wrong. Is that why Christians have revival meetings called "Crusade"? And Christian and Catholic schools name their sports teams the "Crusaders"??? Is that why a movement for a cause which is considered noble or righteous is called a "Crusade" (i.e. "the crusade against drugs, the crusade against crime", etc.)? Furthermore, there were more than one or two Crusades. Each one had its own merits, whether good, bad, or a mixture of both. They were wars. They were waged by part of the Christian world, not by all of Christianity. And they each have to be looked at on their own. Would you look at the Vietnam War and say "All American wars have been evil"??? Or would you look only at World War II, or the Revolutionary war, and say "All American wars have been good"??? No, you look at each war on its own merits. Some are good (as good as a war can be, anyway), some are bad, some are both.

How you compare such a broad topic as "the Crusades" to a specific doctrinal self-contradiction as the polygamy of the Mormons is ignorant and illogical, to say the least.

Hannahbee wrote: i could give lots of well-researched examples if i had the time, but i'm actually supposed to be doing homework right now.

Yeah, sure you could. And if I had wings growing out of my back I could fly. Anyway, do your homework, keep studying, and one day when you have an education, then maybe you can speak intelligently on these things.

Hannahbee wrote: this statement just really rubbed me the wrong way because there are mistakes and problems in the history and DOCTRINE of every religion (not to mention country), ESPECIALLY Christianity. please don't try and say "well yes, but i'm not Catholic..." because i'm not either, i'm Presbyterian, and saying that you're not connected with the past mistakes of the Catholic Church is a cop-out. at some point, every denomination's history merges with Catholic history.

First of all, what are you responding to here, because we're not talking about "mistakes" being made by any religion. I'm talking about the double standard applied by people like Penny to the practice of polygamy, and how it is accepted that Joseph Smith and Brigham Young can be great men of God and be polygamists, but when Warren Jeffs does the same exact thing it is sick and wrong.

As far as your continued ignorant rant about "Christianity", a few points for you to know about:
1. I'm not Roman Catholic, nor has my church ever been part of the Roman Catholic Church.
2. If you are Presbyterian, then you indeed can trace your Church's roots back to Roman Catholicism. The same cannot be said for my Church.
3. I'm not connected with the past mistakes of the Roman Catholic Church, and that is not a cop-out. If it is, then please explain how that would be a cop-out. I'm sure you can't.
4. One last time, not all of Christianity is derived from the Roman Catholic Church. Most or all Western Protestantism IS derived from the Roman Catholic Church. Eastern Christianity is mostly independent from the Roman Catholic Church, and always has been, particularly since Roman Catholicism schismed from the rest of Orthodox Christianity.

Hannahbee wrote: standards change, science advances, shit happens that changes people's points of view and the doctrine changes to fit it. that's DEFINITELY not something unique to LDS.

That's quite a statement. "shit happens". Wow, you are a genius, how could I not listen to you? Seriously, the level of ignorance in your post is scary, and it is an affront to me that you would posit your opinion to me as some sort of irrefutable fact when you have no factual statements or evidence to back it up. In other words, stop trying to pass off your opinion as fact. You are only responding out of emotion, as you admitted that what I said "rubbed [you] the wrong way".

Get a clue, and then come and talk to me once you have one.

While I was cleaning something came to my mind. There is a point were with any religion people need to let go of "logic" and follow their hearts. My religion rings true to me (right down to my soul). I am not crazy. I am not ignorant (if I am ignorant then anyone who is devoted to a religion is ignorant and crazy as well). I am trying to be Christlike (although JJ has found a way to unleash my "inner latina"...I am not proud of it).

I wouldn't mind if all this was in good fun. I can take a joke. I know how to laugh at myself. I have seen many South Park episodes where mormonism is made fun of (and guess what? I laugh because it is funny). I just want to say that while people have a problem with my beliefs I would appreciate it if they wouldn't take what I hold so dearly and totally piss on it.