IRC...I completely gree with your points.
I am "tiptoeing" here because I don't want people to think I'm attacking any one person. It's not my intent. I will use examples, though, because it does illustrate specifics of the overall problem that people are perceiving. However, in my most recent case...it kind of falls in line with what BK referred to as "other heated issues" --- so I have to be really careful.
Shastacat...I actually don't like PMs. I think that they are useless and non-productive. They foster a form 'telephone game' and too many people use it as an excuse to gossip rather than actually solve problems. Some people use them to say even more hurtful things than they would dare say in public, or threaten things they have no business threatening.
I had a mod tell me recently if I had something to suggest, to send it via PM. So I did...and the response in return was, well....just the non-reponsive "yeah....and?" environment we're talking about. I felt that it was a complete waste of my time and left me even morefrustrated than before. I'm not going into specifics because I don't want to incite riots again. But if PMs are useless (and to me they pretty much are) than what other outlet do we have?
Now...IRC brought up the roles of moderators in "flame wars" so I'm going to be as...clinical and sterile as I can here.
I was posting in a thread that got "bloated" and the moderator was getting upset. This particular moderator openly admitted to being frustrated about other issues, and was not understanding why people were getting upset with her. Even though I only had a handful posts and others were truly responsible for the "bloat" ... anyway, the moderator was very specific and said to take the issue out of the thread and, I quote:
Now, if you guys REALLY want to discuss this, make a thread in the Gen. Dis. Flame me all you want there. But in ten minutes I will be moving all of these posts out of this thread so the people who actually want to play the game don't have to go through all this bullshit.
Note the bolded part? This was the moderator's directive and an open invitation. So, I did just that. I took the issue out of the thread and posted a thread where she directed, and I addressed the issues.
This moderator's first reaction to it?
OMFG, You're such a drama queen.
She's the one who slung first...ironically enough. From there, it totally disintegrated...and into what I fully believe was (and documented with the admins) an abuse of moderator power. I've addressed this with the admins, so there's no need to go into any of the details of that, really...because I don't want BK mad at me.
The point being? As IRC mentioned, the route of flames and attacks...which I personally equate to being different things... should be directed by moderators without an agenda. If a moderator is resorting to personal attacks, there's a deeper issue that the admins need to look at, and there needs to be some kind of "process" in place for handling heated situations. Sometimes, I honestly think it's best to just let the flames burn in a contained thread...
One of the biggest issues is that "premature lockulation" is rampant on these forums. It's an issue with the moderators...and how they handle situations.
In the case I mentioned above...if a moderator doesn't want to get flamed, then why in the hell openly invite it? It's is especially perplexing that said moderator would then immediately turn it into a personal attack first, even though she publically invited it. Poor desicion on the mod's part? Yes...but that shouldn't mean other posters get punished (or villified) for her poor decisions. Even though, I fully regret taking her up on her offer...I won't allow myself to be blamed for it. If that makes any sense.
The biggest complaint I see from people who post (and who don't post here) is that the moderators (and specific groups) aren't effective and don't listen. They don't seem to have a clear process in place to handle situations...or when to simply let things go on their own. It is especially difficult when moderators behave badly...because they have the power that regular posters do not. Without a process in places, regular forum visitors see a high degree of disregard and lack of courtesy.
I know how difficult moderating can be. I do it on another, very large and busy community elsewhere. It's an often thanksless job and opens yourself up to all kinds of heat. It's not a job for everybody. They need to be consistent and able to withstand a level of berating...and to let that beratement wash off their backs. Sometimes, people just need a sounding board.
Could it be, instead of complaining about the result, it is more important to realize the cause?
I'm trying to be very mature here, sphinx. But could it be that sometimes, people refuse to actually
see the result because they are in denial that they might be the cause? What on group sees as a perfectly happy community with a few mosquitos may be in total denial that they actually live in a tent on a swamp in Ozarks. Subconsiouly, they all know the
last thing they want to do is open the tent to let anyone in.
In my line of work, I do a lot of usability testing. When a group of people are unhappy about something...over 90% of them won't ever speak up. Up to about 30% of that 90% will actually say something positive in order to avoid making anyone upset...even though they're lying. The vast majority, though will never say a single word. That's a huge disservice when spmebody wants to make their product or service the best it can be. If I get a negative comment or a suggestion on something I'm testing, I need to pay a lot of attention to it and address it with others. In fact, I often have to directly ask.
Example: I've got a software program, and we're testin gthe user's manual. Most of the comments are completel yuseless...because nobody wants make waves. Yet, I've got two or three of the user's who aren't afraid to say things like, "My, God, the heading font you're using is annoying the shit out of me". (That was a real comment, btw!)
So, in a later review, I asked specifically about the heading font...and 70% of them agreed that it was difficult for them to read and annoyed them. How would I have known that if it weren't for that one person bringing it to my attention? It seems like a small issue...and in reality is was...but if it effects the overall perception of the product, it needs to be fixed.
If people don't speak up...we assume there is no problem. We live in our happy tent and swat or ingore those few mosquitos thinking them of no importance, wen there's this big reality out there. Some people are just more willing to voice their concerns than others. Clearly, I'm one of those people...as are many other here.
But, ignoring the voices of a few and passing them off as the "cause" is really treading on dangerous ground. to me, not listening to everyone makes you as much of the probelm as anybody else. And on these forums especially, a lot of posters and lurkers feel that dismissive attitude.
Bringing up concerns is not an attack, and I really think that there is a group (or a couple of groups) of people who can't differentiate between good, productive discussion (even if heated) and outright personal attacks. Honestly, some of the moderators are parts of those groups. There are other moderators that seem to be far more levelheaded and consistent...I may not agree with them sometimes...but at least they're consistent and seemingly without agenda.
I'm old school, where one takes responsibility for one's own actions.
sphinx, I'm totally with you there. Thing is...not everybody else is.
My only bottom line is that I am a part of 5 other forum communities and NEVER do any of those communities have any of these problems...
Same here. I'm part of at least 4 other communities and never see this kind of stuff go on because the forums are run far more effectively, from the admins and mods on down. Yes, they have rules...but the rules are enforced equally, across the board. I see plenty of flames and heated discussions, but personal attacks and people feeling unwelcome? Never.
There are rules here...yes. although in some places I think the rules fully aren't understood and are poorly applied or enforced.
Case in point. I called somebody an idiot. Granted...not the best thing to do, and I'm the first to admit it. My post? Deleted and rightfully so. Yet, other posts calling me (and a few other posters) bad names were left. I pointed this out to a moderator via PM. No response, no action. They can leave them there for all I care, but I'm not going to say I'm not annoyed that the ones with the power are inconsistent in their running of the boards here...
...which I think is the biggest issue. I'm not harping on any particular mod or admin here. But I (and others) see a huge inconisistency in the application of rules and behavior. Because of that, posters are a bit confused as to what they can and can't do, which is the perfect free-for-all environment that foster personal attacks.
I think a lot of the flaming comes from people who are, quite frankly, very intelligent, quick, and witty. I might even go so far as to say genius in their own quirky ways.
That's actually been my experience as well. Good, productive flames come from the most intelligent people...who really are an asset to any online community. There are a LOT of very inteeligent people on the LG15 forums. There are also a few I really wonder about.
But, also, the most intelligent people are also often prone to seriously odd behavior. Frankly, that makes it fun.
