Satanic references in the occult not so satanic

[tannhaus]

Ok, I'll start off the list. I thought it might be cool since we can all agree Bree's religion is occultic to blow up some misconceptions concerning the occult. So, I'll start off a few and we can all discuss and add others.

1. 666

This one is actually misunderstood by most. It comes from a verse in Revelations in the Bible that says:

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

In ancient Hebrew, they didn't use numbers. Each letter had a number associated with it. So, if you wanted to write a specific number, you just wrote the letters and people read them as a number. One side effect to this is that you could add up the letters and come up with a number for a word or for a name.

In hebrew gemetria, which deals with this practice, words that enumerate to the same number are related in some way. Gemetria is a practice devoted to finding these relations and discovering deeper meanings in text. It, of course, influenced Revelations and most of the Bible.

By taking it out of historical and hebrew context, we don't understand the significance. However, by placing it into context, we see that every name literally has a number. Now, it was a practice by jews when they spoke out against a figure in the ruling roman party to use the number of his name instead of his actual name. Using his name might land you in prison. Using his number meant only those that also knew gemetria understood you. So, it might be quite notable that the Caesar for the time had a name that enumerated to 666.

But, what else enumerates to 666? One thing is "Shem Yeheshuah". That means "The name of Jesus". So we find that Jesus himself can enumerate to 666. So, obviously, the number itself has no evil connotations attached to it.

Another thing that enumerates to 666 explains some of Crowley's insights: http://www.thelemapedia.org/index.php/666

Also, I don't think it's mentioned there, but in the solar square...which is a square composed of smaller squares with magickal significance meant to identify a particular thing, the sum of the numbers add up to 666. So, Crowley saw 666 as indicative of a solar diety.

2. Enochian

People refer to enochian as satanic. They do so without any basis in fact. They don't know anything about enochian, so assume it is satanic.

In fact, Enochian was given to Dr. John Dee in the 16th century. Doctor Dee was Queen Elizabeth's personal astrologer. He was also a very pious Christian.

The main use of enochian is actually to summon the angels of God. As a matter of fact, if you read the interpretations of the Enochian keys, they sound almost biblical. Translation of the first key:

I reign over you, sayeth the God of Justice, in power exalted above the firmaments of wrath: in whose hands the Sun is as a sword and the Moon as a through thrusting fire: which measureth your garments in the midst of my vestures, and thrust you together in the palms of my hands: whose seats are garnished with the fire of gathering, and beautified your garments with admiration. To whom I made a law to govern the holy ones and delivered you a rod with the ark of knowledge. Moreover you lifted up your voices and swear obedience and faith to him that liveth and triumpheth whose beginning is not, nor end cannot be, which shineth as a flame in the midst of your palace, and reigneth amongst you as the balance of righteousness and truth. Move, therefore, and show yourselves: open the mysteries of your creation: Be friendly unto me: for I am the servant of the same your God, the true worshipper of the highest.

3. Occult orders

As a matter of fact, most occult orders were pretty much Christian organizations based upon freemasonry. The most famous occult orders: The Golden Dawn and the Rosicrucians would actually fall into this category.

So...there is my start. Discuss, prove me wrong, or add your own. I think the problem is that when people think of the occult they think it's diametrically opposed to christianity. That's just not the case. Most of the occult isn't only not opposed to christianity, but has been brought down through the centuries by christians.

[Icaterus]

Nice. I know absolutely nothing about any religion . Thanks for pointing those facts out.

[tannhaus]

Nice. I know absolutely nothing about any religion . Thanks for pointing those facts out.

Well, I'm just glad you found them enlightening

[Hannahbee]

hold up- gotta get it out there that i thought it was recently discovered that the number from Revalation had actually been mistranslated as 666, and was really 616.

i KNOW i saw that on TV and that they at least thought they were being serious, although i know that that doesn't necesarily make it true. anybody else heard this?

[asenath]

About 666, I remember in the news a few years ago there were reports that the Bible was mistranslated with that, and that it was actually "616".

Satanists, apocalypse watchers and heavy metal guitarists may have to adjust their demonic numerology after a recently deciphered ancient biblical text revealed that 666 is not the fabled Number of the Beast after all.

A fragment from the oldest surviving copy of the New Testament, dating to the Third century, gives the more mundane 616 as the mark of the Antichrist.

http://www.religionnewsblog.com/11134/b ... ued-to-616

[LikkleSister]

Another interesting fact - pinched from our ol' friend Mr. Duquette: when the supreme name of the Lord - YHVH - is complemented with the letter Shin or Sh, standing for life or breath, it becomes YHShVH. So, the Lord, given breath and life becomes... Jeeeeesuuuus

616 - It gives all "true satanists" a pickle. Hehe.

[Sfonzarelli]

χξς and χιϛ (666 and 616) are two very similar words and the Biblical texts we have today are the results of various ancient hand-copies of texts, which sometimes contained errors. Thus, Ancietn Greek copies of the Book of Revelations have both 666 and 616, although 666 is more common. "666" would be Nero, and "616" would be Caligula.

[tannhaus]

??? and ??? (666 and 616) are two very similar words and the Biblical texts we have today are the results of various ancient hand-copies of texts, which sometimes contained errors. Thus, Ancietn Greek copies of the Book of Revelations have both 666 and 616, although 666 is more common. "666" would be Nero, and "616" would be Caligula.

True...and since the books were handwritten...not just copied like today, there remains a lot of room for error. So yes, they have found texts that say 616. But, if the majority say 666 we should go with 666.

We can't rule out intentional changes too. Suppose a scribe had a beef with another political figure. He could easily change the letters to support his views.

I'm surprised that story about 616 got as much press as it did. At the time it was reported, it was already old news.

[jenfee]

??? and ??? (666 and 616) are two very similar words and the Biblical texts we have today are the results of various ancient hand-copies of texts, which sometimes contained errors. Thus, Ancietn Greek copies of the Book of Revelations have both 666 and 616, although 666 is more common. "666" would be Nero, and "616" would be Caligula.

True...and since the books were handwritten...not just copied like today, there remains a lot of room for error. So yes, they have found texts that say 616. But, if the majority say 666 we should go with 666.

One thing to keep in mind with the manuscript traditions: you can't really use the "majority rules" principle. If 20 people copied from 1 manuscript and 5 people copied from 5 different manuscripts, the 20 only get one "vote." It's called following a stemma.

Personally I think way too much emphasis is put on this number symbolism that can really be read however you want it to. It's like statistics, but without the rigorous method. It can mean what you want it to mean.

[tannhaus]

Personally I think way too much emphasis is put on this number symbolism that can really be read however you want it to. It's like statistics, but without the rigorous method. It can mean what you want it to mean.

Well, part of Gemetria is knowing when you've stumbled upon something and when you haven't. There's a definite art to it.

[jenfee]

Personally I think way too much emphasis is put on this number symbolism that can really be read however you want it to. It's like statistics, but without the rigorous method. It can mean what you want it to mean.

Well, part of Gemetria is knowing when you've stumbled upon something and when you haven't. There's a definite art to it.

I'm sure that's true, and I'm certainly not dismissing it out of hand. I just keep thinking about something Nora Volkova said about Madonna and Kaballah water on another thread. The stupidity of some scriptural/literary interpretations boggles the mind.

[Sfonzarelli]

Personally I think way too much emphasis is put on this number symbolism that can really be read however you want it to. It's like statistics, but without the rigorous method. It can mean what you want it to mean.

Well, part of Gemetria is knowing when you've stumbled upon something and when you haven't. There's a definite art to it.

I'm sure that's true, and I'm certainly not dismissing it out of hand. I just keep thinking about something Nora Volkova said about Madonna and Kaballah water on another thread. The stupidity of some scriptural/literary interpretations boggles the mind.

Using Madonna as an example of kaballah is like using...

...Damn it, my metaphor-maker is already asleep.

[tannhaus]

I'm sure that's true, and I'm certainly not dismissing it out of hand. I just keep thinking about something Nora Volkova said about Madonna and Kaballah water on another thread. The stupidity of some scriptural/literary interpretations boggles the mind.

I'm the one that brought up the Kabbalah water!

But, as far as I know...there's no reference for that. That's just something they cooked up.... and you really can't point at what Madonna and her Rabbi state and compare it to the actual Kabbalah.

[jenfee]

I'm sure that's true, and I'm certainly not dismissing it out of hand. I just keep thinking about something Nora Volkova said about Madonna and Kaballah water on another thread. The stupidity of some scriptural/literary interpretations boggles the mind.

I'm the one that brought up the Kabbalah water!

But, as far as I know...there's no reference for that. That's just something they cooked up.... and you really can't point at what Madonna and her Rabbi state and compare it to the actual Kabbalah.

You're right about the Kabbalah water! Sorry! By the way, that was one of the most hilarious things I've seen in a long time. I'm a musician, so the idea of playing music to the water to get it to crystalize just cracked me up!

I'm not comparing Madonna to the actual Kabbalah (whatever it may be), but this is an extreme example among many. I just think that a lot of people, especially (shoot me) Christians, think that you can add things up all over the place and come up with something meaningful. What's meaningful to _me_ is what the original authors had in mind when they wrote this stuff.

[tannhaus]

I just think that a lot of people, especially (shoot me) Christians, think that you can add things up all over the place and come up with something meaningful. What's meaningful to _me_ is what the original authors had in mind when they wrote this stuff.

Well, gemetria is part of the Kabbalah that allows you to see how things connect. As far as what the original authors had in mind, if you're talking about books of the Bible....then you have to use gemetria and kabbalah. They did.