monomyth application??

storyteller · Post by **storyteller** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 5:16 pm

Someone posted something about Movie Structure before and it kind of got me thinking. This isn't a movie- it's a whole other type of story. It's like comparing Young Adult Lit to Science Fiction- just a totally different genre. So I think it might help if we try a broader structure.

Okay- I hate to put all of this in because it's just freaking long, but I think thatit might be a way to predict the journey a bit. This is the Hero's Journey (Joseph Campbell). This link (http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/smc/j ... mmary.html) will take you to the descriptions of each step. Anyone want to help me figure out where we are and what might happen next??

I've done this with (don't laugh) Harry Potter and it is surprisingly accurate. This general structure can also be found in a lot of Stephen King (The Stand- big time) and other really well-written authors... maybe it would apply here?

The Departure
1. The Call to Adventure- Bree's News that She would be Participating in the Ceremony (could have started a while back when she started her purification)
2. Refusal of the Call- This is one she might have considered out of fear but rejected (see description at link above)
3. Supernatural Aid- ??
4. The Crossing of the First Threshold- The Ceremony?
5. The Belly of the Whale- Time spent without Daniel? Could this be where we are now?

Inititation- Into Adulthood??
1. The Road of Trials
2. The Meeting with the Goddess
3. Woman as the Temptress
4. Atonement with the Father
5. Apotheosis
6. The Ultimate Boon

Return
1. Refusal of the Return
2. The Magic Flight
3. Rescue from Without
4. The Crossing of the Return Threshold
5. Master of the Two Worlds
6. Freedom to Live

Luv2Luvem · Post by **Luv2Luvem** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 5:50 pm

As soon as I read the words "hero's journey" I knew you were a fellow HP fan!

storyteller · Post by **storyteller** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:25 pm

Luv2Luvem wrote:As soon as I read the words "hero's journey" I knew you were a fellow HP fan!

Yes- sadly I am about 13 years too old for the books, but I have a Masters in Storytelling, so I can chalk it up to my interest in story structure.

goblynn · Post by **goblynn** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 6:57 pm

storyteller wrote:Yes- sadly I am about 13 years too old for the books, but I have a Masters in Storytelling, so I can chalk it up to my interest in story structure.

One--I think this detailed breakdown of events/markers in a story is probably more accurate than one used for a screenplay (in the sense that it allows room for more action, as we have no real time constraint).

Two--No one is ever too old for HP.

I think I would love it even without my Literature degree...(though I've no Masters!) There's just Something about them; sort of a LOTR for the younger set. (Please, don't poke me with sticks for comparing them!)

Methinks I shall skulk away to reread HBP...

Luv2Luvem · Post by **Luv2Luvem** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:11 pm

storyteller wrote:
Luv2Luvem wrote:As soon as I read the words "hero's journey" I knew you were a fellow HP fan!

Yes- sadly I am about 13 years too old for the books, but I have a Masters in Storytelling, so I can chalk it up to my interest in story structure.

There's no such thing as "too old" for HP tsk tsk Shame on you!

Sfonzarelli · Post by **Sfonzarelli** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 11:42 pm

Her supernatural aid is probably the ceremony itself or the influence of her religion in general.

amazonbunny2 · Post by **amazonbunny2** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:21 am

I took a Mythology class and I learned all about the Hero Archetype. (which is what I call it)

Here is my spin on a few things you have said:

The Departure
1. The Call to Adventure- (I agree with you on this one) When she is given the news she is participating in the ceremony

2. Refusal of the Call- She did not out and out refuse to do the ceremony but many of the actions she did with Daniel, like the party and things, could be seen as a refusal in a sense.

3. Supernatural Aid- This does not mean just a supernatural thing, it can be like a Wise Old Man Figure(Someone to guid who has done the journey) which I think is replaced with the Trickster/Shadow which is Lucy. Lucy has a hidden agenda and the Shadow has gone through the archetype but at some point has fallen.

4. The Crossing of the First Threshold- Since the threshholds usually have gaurdians(think the two king statues in the first lord of the rings movie) I believe that she is crossing it when she decides to stay away from Daniel and prepare to go on her journey

5. The Belly of the Whale- This is, in my opinion, part of the ceremony in some way or her preperation.

Inititation-
1. The Road of Trials: I believe the ceremony is also part of her initiation since it is a trial and that Daniel is also part of her trial(in an indirect way) as she still feels for him and misses him dearly.

2. The Meeting with the Goddess: This is where I think we are at actually.

Now this is just my spin on this and you do not have to agree with me in anyway shape or form. I just see it that way. Also, it's important to note that not ever Hero Arche has every step in it exactly.

Also, I believe that people in her life are playing figures in Archetypes. For example: Purple Monkey and Owen: These characters are Bree's "gaurdians." Not that they protect much but I think have some effect on Bree.

She also follows the Female or Simple Archetypes which ar still complex.

Sorry guys if I confused anyone.

storyteller · Post by **storyteller** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 11:09 am

amazonbunny2 wrote: 2. The Meeting with the Goddess: This is where I think we are at actually.

I had actually wondered this myself but took it out before I posted. I am sort of wondering if this is the role that Gemma is supposed to play. i think if you look at Jessica's Myspace page, it's obvious it's not just fanfic, and she is an older figure who posesses knowledge.

amazonbunny2 wrote: Also, I believe that people in her life are playing figures in Archetypes. For example: Purple Monkey and Owen: These characters are Bree's "gaurdians." Not that they protect much but I think have some effect on Bree.

I am now officially impressed with you! Somehow this idea hadn't even crossed my mind... so simple and so obvious.

I'm still up in the air as to whether Bree's Religion and her Helper are actually entirely bad. As someone else has said, perhaps the point (theme... whatever) is that this is all a matter of perspective.

amazonbunny2 · Post by **amazonbunny2** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 5:42 pm

I am now officially impressed with you! Somehow this idea hadn't even crossed my mind... so simple and so obvious.

I'm still up in the air as to whether Bree's Religion and her Helper are actually entirely bad. As someone else has said, perhaps the point (theme... whatever) is that this is all a matter of perspective.

It really is a matter of perspective but I think you and I are having similar trains of thought.

storyteller · Post by **storyteller** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:41 am

It's taken me a couple days to reconsider everything because of Bree's last video... here's what I''m thinking. Anyone want to weigh in on the possible meanings behind any of this? All quotes come from http://www.mcli.dist.maricopa.edu/smc/j ... mmary.html

The Departure
1. The Call to Adventure- Bree's News that She would be Participating in the Ceremony (could have started a while back when she started her purification)
2. Refusal of the Call-Because she initially accepted the responsibility of the ceremony, I think that she can no longer refuse the call- I don’t think this is where we are-. "Often when the call is given, the future hero refuses to heed it. This may be from a sense of duty or obligation, fear, insecurity, a sense of inadequacy, or any of a range of reasons that work to hold the person in his or her current circumstances." Bree does not feel held to her current circumstances anymore.
3. Supernatural Aid- Daniel?- obviously Owen and P Monkey are something that Lucy has encouraged because it allows her to separate herself from Daniel with less trauma- Daniel is the one who is going to aid her in her journey toward independence and adulthood. Gemma may come into this as well, if we can ever figure out if she's legit.
4. The Crossing of the First Threshold- This is the point where the person actually crosses into the field of adventure, leaving the known limits of his or her world and venturing into an unknown and dangerous realm where the rules and limits are not known.
5. The Belly of the Whale- Could this be where Bree Hides or flees from her parents/the Order? This insinuates that she may be separated form Daniel for a time as well.

Inititation-
1. The Road of Trials
2. The Meeting with the Goddess - In Bree’s case, because she is a girl, it will be a God- this may be a point where she stops “seeing herself in a dualistic way” which could mean that she stops feeling guilt for disappointing her parents (by not participating in the ceremony) because she claims her life as her own.
3. Woman as the Temptress (a temptation to return to that which they have abandoned) – perhaps an encounter with Lucy or her parents
4. Atonement with the Father – some sort of confrontation or reconciliation with her parents- “For the transformation to take place, the person as he or she has been must be "killed" so that the new self can come into being. Sometime this killing is literal, and the earthly journey for that character is either over or moves into a different realm.”
5. Apotheosis
6. The Ultimate Boon – What is Bree’s ultimate goal here? Adulthood? Knowledge? Any ideas?

Return
1. Refusal of the Return
2. The Magic Flight
3. Rescue from Without
4. The Crossing of the Return Threshold
5. Master of the Two Worlds- “achieving a balance between the material and spiritual. The person has become comfortable and competent in both the inner and outer worlds.”
6. Freedom to Live

My Theory- Bree's parent's will be of no help and Bree will run off, or have her freedom removed from her in some way- maybe put on house arrest- this iwll be a time when she has no friends and is unable to communicate with the outside world- namely, us. Maybe more focus on Daniel and Gemma at that point. I like the idea that they run off to research the places on Lucy's computer.

Any other thoughts?

edited for punctuation

DontHaveAClue · Post by **DontHaveAClue** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:45 am

I really like this post. Keep it coming, you're doing an awesome job.

Sfonzarelli · Post by **Sfonzarelli** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:32 pm

I think (hope?) you're underestimating how long the story is, and we're just NOW at the refusal to call.

storyteller · Post by **storyteller** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:15 pm

Sfonzarelli wrote:I think (hope?) you're underestimating how long the story is, and we're just NOW at the refusal to call.

If my theory is correct, we are only on the fourth step of the first part- I'm fairly certain that this could drag out for years if the creators really wanted it to, even if we are where I think we are. Also, this is an analysis of the structure and isn't really related to any length of time.

Even so, if it takes us roughly 15 videos to get through one phase (and that's the precident set so far) and there are 17 phases, that's 255 videos.

I don't (personally) think that the phases could fit such a formula. Some are more important to the heroine than others- I don't think Bree will necessarily next 15 episodes to get through some of the final phases, and she may need more than 15 to get through some of the phases in the Initiation.

JMHO

storyteller · Post by **storyteller** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:33 pm

My justification for having passed the "refusal of the call" stage of the journey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hero%2 ... 8phrase%29

Check out the section on the refusal of the call:

Refusal of the Call – Reluctance to Change
# Excuses are used to avoid the call
# Hesitation illustrates the formidability of the challenge ahead
# Persistent refusal leads to tragedy
# Willing vs reluctant heroes
# A THRESHOLD GUARDIAN may test the hero’s resolve
# Conflicting calls may be given, leading to difficult choices

Doesn't this sound like Bree Lying to Daniel? Bree shuts Daniel out and refuses to see how odd the Elders are and how this could all be very dangerous for her.

Now look at the First Threshold:

Crossing the First Threshold – Committing to Change
# The first turning point
# A THRESHOLD GUARDIAN tests the hero's resolve
# An external event forces the hero to make a decision
# The decision leads to an internal commitment to the journey
# Their threat may be illusionary, the solution simply to push through
# Resistance creates change and strength, hence the guardian allows the hero to grow
# The guardian may be turned into an ally
# A physical or metaphorical crossing is made into the Special World of Act II
# The crossing is an irrevocable leap of faith, from which there’s no turning back
# The passage to the Special World may be exhausting, frustrating, disorientating

This could be the beginning of her refusal to participate in the ceremony. The journey could be a journey toward independence- which her parents have never allowed her to develop.

The phase between these two phases is Meeting the Mentor- which I'm starting to think might be Gemma-

Meeting the Mentor – Overcoming Reluctance
# A MENTOR is in the widest sense simply a “source of wisdom”
# They may not be personified, or may be incongruously so
# The mentor is often an evolved hero
# The mentor archetype assists the hero in overcoming their fear

Gemma has already established her independence from the order and she has a lot of wisdom and knowledge that she can offer Bree.

Any other thoughts?

storyteller · Post by **storyteller** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 8:41 am

It seems that Gemma is, in fact, destined to be Bree's mentor. Obviously she's already given Bree very important information- that she has been groomed for this as Gemma was and it was hard enough for Gemma to leave the group to establish her independence and she wasn't even the chosen one.
This is going to be a hard road for Bree if she chooses to refuse the ceremony, and she may be told that she doesn't have a choice.

In order to step into the unknown world of indeendence Bree is going to have to confront the Threshold Guardians- her parents- which could be quite an ordeal. I'm still uncertain whether Bree will be locked in her room or if she and Daniel will run away. If I had to guess, it could be a combination of both with a daring rescue by Daniel.

Lonelygirl15

monomyth application??

monomyth application??

Monomyth Redux

The Threshold Gaurdians and the Mentor