Serious theological ? re Thelema; no flame warring allowed

TheFatLady · Post by **TheFatLady** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:47 am

It occurs to me that Bree is being very obedient by getting injections of some mystery substance and by preparing blindly for some ceremony she knows little about. Obedience (of certain types) is a major virtue in many religions, mine included. But on the face of it, I'd suppose the idea of obedience and the idea of following one's own True Will would be incongruous. Is this true? Or is there some theological way in which Thelema would have these two qualities co-exist?

I'm asking, because if obedience *is* contrary to the True Will exhortation, then Daniel (or Gemma or some other friend) would have a real, logical, THEOlogical reason to point out to Bree that Lucy, et al, are not good guys (assuming Bree's religion is some offshoot of Thelema).

A simple answer would suffice, if anyone has one.

Post by **Broken Kid** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:44 am

That's a really good question. I don't have an answer, but I'd like to add a bit...

Have we been given much evidence that we're really dealing with Thelema? I mean, it seems so obvious, with the picture of Crowley and the symbols on the homepage, but other than some discussion of free will versus determinism, Bree hasn't given us much information that would give us any specific real religion. There's some mention of someone coming over on the Mayflower, there's some mysterious order, some close ties to Egyptology and the zodiac... but the rest is just suspicion.

I'm hoping the Creators have thrown us the best twist yet and used Thelema as a red herring. We've all suspected for a while that they'll make up a religion to avoid offending anyone. I guess the more I find out about Thelema (from people like Tannenhaus), the less likely it seems to be...

goblynn · Post by **goblynn** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:40 am

Excellent question...and I wonder if Daniel will/would pick up on that discrepancy.

Thinking about your post makes me wonder this--it seems a trend among faiths (correct me if I'm wrong) to hold that a person can't understand right from wrong until taught the difference, and that individual must be taught in order to recognize how to make a decision on his/her own...what if the Order is considering Bree to still be learning, and thus unable to understand her own will? If that's the case, making these decisions for her would make sense, as would her blind trust in the Order doing "right" (whatever that may mean in *our* view)...

(Did any of that make sense?)

TheFatLady · Post by **TheFatLady** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:47 am

Yep, that made good sense. It's exactly the kind of thing I'm wondering about--maybe the real question is where and *when* true will intersects (or doesn't) with obedience?

I'm so hoping to hear that there's a discrepancy here so that Daniel can get on the case!

So where are all the Thelemites? We want answers!

Post by **twjaniak** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 11:57 am

It seems as though a lot of what Daniel knows about Crowley, Denderah, and Thelema is information WE told him through our own comments and speculations on these forums.

goblynn · Post by **goblynn** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:33 pm

TheFatLady wrote:...maybe the real question is where and *when* true will intersects (or doesn't) with obedience?

Which brings me to wonder--do Thelemites have a "right" and "wrong"? Hear me out--if Thelema dictates to do as one wilt, how can there be a "wrong"? Even if limited to not harming others, what qualifies as harmful? and, as we've already pointed out, when does recognition of free will begin?

Yes, Thelemites--please come out and educate us!

goblynn · Post by **goblynn** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:44 pm

twjaniak wrote:It seems as though a lot of what Daniel knows about Crowley, Denderah, and Thelema is information WE told him through our own comments and speculations on these forums.

If that *is* the case, perhaps TheFatLady should address Daniel in the character chat regarding this question?

TheFatLady · Post by **TheFatLady** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 3:48 pm

goblynn wrote:
twjaniak wrote:It seems as though a lot of what Daniel knows about Crowley, Denderah, and Thelema is information WE told him through our own comments and speculations on these forums.
If that *is* the case, perhaps TheFatLady should address Daniel in the character chat regarding this question?

I'm game--if someone will pipe up and tell me if True Will and obedience DO conflict. Hello??!!!

goblynn · Post by **goblynn** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:12 pm

I'm no Thelemite, but Daniel isn't, either. I say ask him anyway. At the very least, he should ask Bree...maybe she can clarify for him/us. If she can't, well...you'll have added to her doubts about her religion. Win/win, if you ask me.

Personally, I think obedience and free will do oppose one another, if for no other reason than obedience entails following order or instructions without question, while free will is, well, not that.

TheFatLady · Post by **TheFatLady** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:16 pm

goblynn wrote:I'm no Thelemite, but Daniel isn't, either. I say ask him anyway. At the very least, he should ask Bree...maybe she can clarify for him/us. If she can't, well...you'll have added to her doubts about her religion. Win/win, if you ask me.

Personally, I think obedience and free will do oppose one another, if for no other reason than obedience entails following order or instructions without question, while free will is, well, not that.

That's all the rationalization I needed. I'm on the case.

*sprints to DB chat thread*

goblynn · Post by **goblynn** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:20 pm

Woo!

Now, why did you not just tell us you wanted us to agree with you? Clever thing, you are!

TheFatLady · Post by **TheFatLady** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:38 pm

Heh, heh. Didn't I say I was SOOO hoping I was right? I was also so hoping the Thelemites would tell me I was "officially" correct, but since they're dragging their butts, you lay people will do!

So I posed the question to DB here:

http://lonelygirl15.com/forum/viewtopic ... 6541#46541

TheFatLady · Post by **TheFatLady** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:21 pm

goblynn, you're my new best friend--you posted a thumb's up after my comment to Danielbeast. Wanna go to the mall? We could get our nails done.

jenfee · Post by **jenfee** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 8:51 pm

TheFatLady wrote:Heh, heh. Didn't I say I was SOOO hoping I was right? I was also so hoping the Thelemites would tell me I was "officially" correct, but since they're dragging their butts, you lay people will do!

So I posed the question to DB here:

http://lonelygirl15.com/forum/viewtopic ... 6541#46541

Yeah...uh...I think the Thelemites were all run out of town on a rail.

spaciegirlreturn · Post by **spaciegirlreturn** » Tue Oct 24, 2006 10:07 pm

there are at least 3 here..somewhere