Personally, I think it will be more interesting if . . .

LilyB · Post by **LilyB** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:06 pm

They do not make Jonas part of the Order. Because then it is like, "yeah, yeah, we know, EVERYONE is part of the Order." It is just too much. It would be much more itneresting for the plot and characters if Jonas is being set up or if his family were against the Order. That would make sense since Gemma's message was for them NOT to go to Jonas. Afterall, if he were a member of the Order wouldn't she have encouraged them to join him. That said, his parents having anything to do at all with the Order, wether for or against, is almost too cheesey. I say, make Bree paranoid or make him set up. That way there is somewhere for the story to go.

silvermoon · Post by **silvermoon** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:12 pm

I agree. Perhaps Jonas' parents weren't in the Order, but working to prove a case against them (perhaps because years ealier, they had snatched their daughter form her crib....). Jonas didn't know about the Order, because they wanted to keep him safe. This is why they were constantly traveling and sailing around the world -- they were looking for their daughter and proof against the Order!

I'm hoping if they get into his parents room, there will be some sort of journal telling their story.

Would make for an interesting twist, IMHO.

PinkoLady · Post by **PinkoLady** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:16 pm

I agree.

...though Gemma also encouraged them to run away from the Watchers. If it weren't for her, the Watchers could have just gone on Watching in peace.

silvermoon · Post by **silvermoon** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:27 pm

I kind of think, though, that Gemma wasn't meant to be "bad" from the beginning, that midway through the Creators realized that a lot of people just didn't like her and they threw her character to the wolves.

Otherwise, why would she have told them to watch out for the watchers? Wouldn't that make them the people to go to?

LilyB · Post by **LilyB** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:31 pm

All the information Gemma gave prior to posting her vid about being scared was pretty useful information and was the exact type of thing that would continue to scare Bree away from the Order. How does this fit with her being in the Order. There seems to be only two ways to explain that:

1. Gemma was caught and coerced or brain-washed into working for the Order and hence the change to her suggesting Bree go home, etc. If this is the case it supports Jonas not being a part of the Order because why would they want them to go running away from an Order member?
OR
2. The Watchers are not actually part of the Order. Her videos were designed to scare Bree away from people the Order did not want her coming into contact with.

Explaination #1 seems the more likely and fitting explaination given the scary stories about the Order Gemma was telling initially.

Kasdeja · Post by **Kasdeja** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:34 pm

I've said it before. If you are in a position to gain someone's trust, you start by giving them some truth. For whatever reason, the Order wanted Bree to leave home...wanted her on the run. My guess is that she would get scared and come back. But, you always give a sample of truth, that they can verify...so they trust you.

LilyB · Post by **LilyB** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 2:39 pm

But that would be completely the type of truth that it would be wrong for Gemma to give. Stories about their childhood together? Yes. Leaving the religion because it was hard to be involved with other people? Yes. But scary stories about the exact ceremony Bree is supposed to be involved in? No. That would be a poor move stratigically. There are a million other "truths" they could have Gemma tell that would be less damaging to their ends.

Kasdeja · Post by **Kasdeja** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:15 pm

Not necessarily. These are things that could be seen or recognizable to Bree. To Bree, the fact that Gemma gave her good advice aobut a possible danger is more reason to trust what she says, like when she later told her to go home. To me it makes perfect sense. If she had only told her insignificant truths, why would it be anything to make you say...hmmm...thanks! I can trust you?

LilyB · Post by **LilyB** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:22 pm

But trust was not initially an issue for Bree with Gemma. She started out with positive standing in Bree's eyes.

Kasdeja · Post by **Kasdeja** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:26 pm

Bree didn't know her, though. She was friends with her supposed dog. Why would she trust her?

LilyB · Post by **LilyB** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:31 pm

What do you mean "Bree didn't know her"? Bree acknowledges in her video response that she remembers Gemma. If it is the same girl then, yes, she knew her. Revist the vids. Bree, at the time, regarded her with no suspicion. She recalled Gemma as being something of a childhood friend. The dog is incidental. There is a whole discussion of the friendship between thier parents BEFORE it came out that Bree's parents were not her biological parents. Bree regarded Gemma as a family friend she had lost contact with.

Kasdeja · Post by **Kasdeja** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:34 pm

No, she remembers her dog. She wasn't friends with Gemma. I don't need to revisit the videos. She was friends with her DOG. Remember, when she said the ONLY friend she had there was a DOG and how Gemma introduces herself and says it was HER dog? There was never any indication of her being regarded as a family friend. Bree was a little girl with no friends but a dog. Gemma used that angle to get in. We don't really know for sure that she's the same girl.

LilyB · Post by **LilyB** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:41 pm

I acknoweldged that we do not know for sure that the person claiming to be Gemma was actually Gemma.

Look, here's the bottom line. The Order seems pretty intent on getting Bree to do the ceremony of her own free will. For whatever reason, they cannot physically force her to do it from the evidence that has been presented at this point. So it is counter-productive to entice her to trust someone by scaring the her AWAY from doing the one thing they want her to do. If your end goal is to get her to do the ceremony you would not want to cause her more fear of that. There are other means of instilling trust than scaring her away from something you do NOT want her to be scared about. It is not a good tactic to take. It is completely counter-productive. There is something fishy about that whole situation.

Kasdeja · Post by **Kasdeja** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 3:47 pm

No, they wanted her gone. That's why they had Gemma tell her to leave. They don't care if she's scared, only that she chooses to do it. If they cared whether or not she's scared they wouldn't have also ransacked the hotel room to make her keep on the move. They wouldn't have kidnapped Daniel. They wouldn't have a watcher standing in plain view. I guess I can't explain the way to garner trust in such a situation...but it's not a tactic I made up on my own or anything. It's one in practice. So, you don't agree...oh well.

LilyB · Post by **LilyB** » Fri Mar 02, 2007 4:09 pm

Well this thread isn't really supposed to be about Gemma. That just crept up. I think you and I see things differently. Seems to me that by the time they got round to kidnapping Daniel it was too late to be subtle. And there is no gaurentee that the Watchers are part of the Order. I've seen theories that they are something else and that the Order was trying to keep her away from the Watchers. We don't really know why rifled through their rooma t the hotel. I'm sorry, but it is not a question as to "why should she have trusted Gemma" as much as it was simply an observable fact that, initially, she DID trust Gemma.

Truth is that none but the writers really know any of the characters true motivations.

Anyway, I hope there is more to the Jonas thing than him being part of the Order. If both he and Gemma were with the Order from the outset that would be really lame.