Lonelygirl15

LG is at a crossroads here. Presonally I think the more of OpAphid stuff which is dropped the better. If they continued to shave away things like the silly notion of a Star Wars-like world of conflict between the Order and them the better. I think they had a pretty good mythology going just about the characters and daily lives! I think they thought in order to make it mythology-worthy they needed to make it huge, but in reality it only made things more silly. Right now some scaling back would be the best perscription, remember Creators, you DON'T need a huge world conflict in which a sinister force controls all police and doctors in the world to make a good "mythology".

They can't exactly pretend the Order doesn't exist at this point, Hye. "Scaling back" would be absolutely dreadful for the storyline - no matter what followed, simply because you don't vivisect a story of its plot elements and expect no one to notice.

Rather than a way to come out of this better than before, that sounds like a way to make sure the coffin is built and the grave dug.

As far as the mythology they wanted to create, if they thought they couldn't pull it off without ongoing drama and conflict, then they were absolutely right. You're not going to successfully do it if you're trying to craft "Ages of Our Daily Lives." That sounds like a non-interactive version of "The Sims."

To revert to Bree in her bedroom and Daniel reading magazines on the bed would spell the instant death of LG15. The series would be viewed as a failure in the eyes of many because of it's perceived inability to handle its own evolution. That which does not grow - dies.

"Every adversity carries with it the seed of an equivalent or greater benefit." — Napoleon Hill

I think the ARG worked best when it was a Gemma/OpAphid vs Tachyon/Brother spinoff. Perhaps this provides an opportunity to reboot the ARG and properly align it.

I am also very concerned that the Creators will shy away from fan interaction now. Their greatest success and reason for fan interaction has become its greatest reason against it. I think there is an opportunity for the fans to step up and create something new that will get people talking and maybe deflect some of the negativity this has brought up.

trainer101 wrote:To revert to Bree in her bedroom and Daniel reading magazines on the bed would spell the instant death of LG15. The series would be viewed as a failure in the eyes of many because of it's perceived inability to handle its own evolution. That which does not grow - dies.

I never said that. I know they aren't and can't go back there. That said, reducing the part of the Order would not be a wrong move. "That which does not grow - dies"?? Are you sure? Because the second the notion that the Order was such a huge force it has it's fingers in every single police station (not to mention doctors' office now as well) the series died a little for me.

HyeMew wrote:I never said that. I know they aren't and can't go back there. That said, reducing the part of the Order would not be a wrong move.

The entire thing is about the Order. Even before mention of the ceremony, the Order's influence on how Bree was raised was causing problems in her life - and had been for a while apparently (Cassie).

How would it not be a wrong move to remove the entire reason for everything that's happening? It would be like taking the One Ring out of "The Lord of the Rings" and trying to make it just be about the Fellowship hiking across Middle-Earth.

HyeMew wrote:"That which does not grow - dies"?? Are you sure?

He was saying that if they were to "downsize" the plot now, people would take it as an indication that the project grew while the scope and ability of the Creators wasn't able to (thus, making it a failure to many).

I understand your view. I also see the forum continue to grow in activity as the story expands. There's no doubt that the Order storyline will shift as the story progresses - provided the story lasts long enough to move into other areas. Will it go away completely? I doubt it, the current arc is compelling and seems to be drawing more fans everyday - and that, in turn, translates to future revenue. If the Order "withdraws" it must be replaced with a story arc that is at least equally compelling.

Lurker wrote:How would it not be a wrong move to remove the entire reason for everything that's happening? It would be like taking the One Ring out of "The Lord of the Rings" and trying to make it just be about the Fellowship hiking across Middle-Earth.

Yes but that's the thing... The Lord of the Rings is a fantasy series. When I started reading this was a girl vlogging in her room. Even if we are to agree that the format has drastically changed into something else now, that doesn't explain the fantastical elements. This is still a vlog foremostly, and thus supposed to be based in reality. The more fanastical it gets the more pathetic it looks, frankly. I don't think I was the only one who laughed when we heard that Tachyon has "camps" or when Brother came swooping in to save the day in his helicopter (how would he get clearance over LA, especially with the Order having their hands in everything? Or why DID he just happen to have a handy helicopter on hand in the first place?)

I think there's a misconception that bigger = better, with bigger = more fantastical, and that somehow with this more elaborate story line it's somehow a "better" storyline. This is not necesarily true and there is a lot of danger for absurdity with that approach.

Lurker wrote:He was saying that if they were to "downsize" the plot now, people would take it as an indication that the project grew while the scope and ability of the Creators wasn't able to (thus, making it a failure to many).

Well... would they? I think that's firstly giving way too much thought to how the average watcher would react, and also, has it grown out of their scope? You seem to be operating firmly in the notion that this is not the case, but perhaps, even if only to a degree, this might just in fact be the case?

Story=conflict, not watching a pretty girl bounce around her bedroom, with some pouting thrown in occastionally... though I'm sure those attracted to her would be content to just watch that.

I started out watching Bree, but for quite a while now, it's been the OpAphid and the non-canon characters that have kept it interesting.

The base story is the conflict between real people and The Order... and to try to dump that now, given that near every episode has been headed that direction, would be a huge mistake.

Sort of like Dorothy going through all the trials and tribulations... putting those slippers on her feet... and then deciding that maybe she really didn't want to go home after all, she'd rather go play bingo with the munchkins.

What you view as a vlog, I view as a story. Vlogging is one of the ways the story is told but not the only way. The story encompasses the ARG and the interaction within that format. Additionally, with the increased input of the fans via their own blogs, videos and other games that are springing up - as well as the changes the Creators are planning, I could never view this as simply a young girls vlog.

Perhaps because I view the storytelling aspect differently than you do, I can be more liberal in my interpretation of what you would call fantasy. To me, the more frustrating moments are when Bree reverts to her 'furry friend loving former self' in the middle of chaos.

HyeMew wrote: I don't think I was the only one who laughed when we heard that Tachyon has "camps" or when Brother came swooping in to save the day in his helicopter (how would he get clearance over LA, especially with the Order having their hands in everything? Or why DID he just happen to have a handy helicopter on hand in the first place?)

I personally dont find this absurd at all........We have known all along that Tachyon and Brother did not operate completely alone.......there have always been the characters of Mother and Father..... to me this denotes some kind of organization...to say that it is crazy for Tachyon has a set area that she works out and trains in isnt that out there.....I mean she cant be the only one and she must have a place (other than out in the open) to practice and hone her skills.......what if there is some organization that is growing in numbers and so we have only heard from these two characters at this point because they took personal intrest in (or were assigned to) this case. I mean Billionaire have helicopters and/or planes.....it wouldnt be that hard to get one if you knew the right people


bet hey that is just my personal opinion

HyeMew wrote:

Lurker wrote:How would it not be a wrong move to remove the entire reason for everything that's happening? It would be like taking the One Ring out of "The Lord of the Rings" and trying to make it just be about the Fellowship hiking across Middle-Earth.

Yes but that's the thing... The Lord of the Rings is a fantasy series. When I started reading this was a girl vlogging in her room.

"The Lord of the Rings" begins with a bunch of country bumpkins throwing a kegger in a backwater region that the rest of the continent barely knew existed. That's a fairly humble beginning for what followed.

And it's not like elements of the Order were never hinted at before. Bree's religion that kept her from doing what most people could do, for instance. And you can't tell me they put the picture of Crowley up without wanting to imply something out of the ordinary.

HyeMew wrote:Even if we are to agree that the format has drastically changed into something else now, that doesn't explain the fantastical elements.

What do you mean "explain" them?

HyeMew wrote:I don't think I was the only one who laughed when we heard that Tachyon has "camps"

Probably not, but I also think you may not have been the only one to unintentionally exaggerate the meaning of that when you heard it. One person took it as "elaborate training facilities" while some of us took it as meaning "nondescript locations in the wilderness where Tachyon knows she can safely throw down a tent while she lies low."

Based on what we know about this camp (that there's a tent and trees), I'd say the latter interpretation is most likely the correct one - and one relatively in line with what we know about Tachyon. She's a covert operative, but that probably doesn't mean she always sleeps in posh hotels.

HyeMew wrote:or when Brother came swooping in to save the day in his helicopter (how would he get clearance over LA

He probably wouldn't. I doubt he asked.

HyeMew wrote:Or why DID he just happen to have a handy helicopter on hand in the first place?

They're not a secret spy organization fighting another secret spy organization for nothing.

HyeMew wrote:I think there's a misconception that bigger = better, with bigger = more fantastical, and that somehow with this more elaborate story line it's somehow a "better" storyline. This is not necesarily true and there is a lot of danger for absurdity with that approach.

While it's not necessarily true, is there anything to indicate to you that it has hurt the series (in any respect beyond your own preferences, I mean)?

HyeMew wrote:Well... would they? I think that's firstly giving way too much thought to how the average watcher would react

I don't think it is. Obviously the first thing people would ask is "Why?" If there was no obvious answer, the most simple conclusion to draw is "They didn't know how to handle it."

HyeMew wrote:and also, has it grown out of their scope? You seem to be operating firmly in the notion that this is not the case, but perhaps, even if only to a degree, this might just in fact be the case?

Other than them being incapable of making high-quality videos while also maintaining the ARG at high quality with elaborate puzzles like there were early on, I haven't seen anything else that I felt suggested that the production has grown beyond their capabilities, no.

As far as the story itself goes (which is what we're discussing), I haven't seen anything at all to indicate that it's out of their field of management.


You still haven't really explained why you think removing all the integral elements of the storyline (I hope you planned for a resolution in there) would somehow improve it. It's this pattern of conflict, rising action, falling action, etc. that has come to define the progression of the plot.

Without all of that, the videos would just be random happenings with no required advancement, direction or purpose - and to take those things away when it has them would be inarguably detrimental. Going all Jeffersons and moving up to a deluxe apartment in the sky tends to be less traumatic than moving out of one into a makeshift dwelling by an overpass.

To give you some examples of both:

-The CG series "ReBoot" moved from a program with a small not-even-cult-status following (and, frankly, pretty dull episode ideas) to a hit series that was voted the #1 program on the Cartoon Network in late 2001 (getting 49% of votes and beating out things like Dragon Ball Z, Gundam, and Outlaw Star) after it was given a large scale conflict that pervaded the second and third seasons (and led into a short, fourth, follow-up season). What it became was engaging, clever, creative, and just downright cool.

-On the other hand, the anime series "Ruroni Kenshin" went from an action/martial arts series that - though it had moments of sharp and entertaining humor - was largely serious and had an overarching plotline for its second season to a bunch of filler snippets (literally; they were waiting for the manga to move farther ahead) that seemed more concerned with comedy. Not surprisingly, the ratings were squalid after that and the show died without getting revived for another season.

I think what Hye is getting at is that in the course of making the whole story revolve around the Order, the show seems to be leaving behind the teenage character development and nuance which once defined Bree and Daniel. But it doesn't have to.

Now, for sure, Bree's mysterious religion has been a part of this series since day one. It was why she was lonely and in her room a lot. Over time, more about her religion HAD to be revealed. But the most successful early videos combined both her personal conflicts as a lonely teenage girl with hints of a dark underside: My Parents Suck (july 4), and Lazy Eye (july 22 - the most successful lg15 video by views ever).

Obviously a lot of parallels can be drawn between Buffy and Lg15 at this point. In Buffy, they made a lot of effort to have buffy still face a lot of the normal dilemmas that high schools and college kids face, including relationships. Those relationships may have been with a vampire and some secret military member, but a lot of attention was still given to those storylines. In that way, I think buffy was able to tap into an audience that enjoyed shows like 90210 and the O.C., and also an audience that liked the vampire-slayer storyline.

When Bree and Daniel left home, that was a huge shakeup for the series compared to Buffy. Bree was homeschooled, now she's not really schooled at all, except at al-Tachyon's training camp i guess. Bree had to totally transform from a girl who didn't know how to drive, and had never been to a party, to a homeless fugitive.

Bree can't go home again. But there can be story arcs that deal with personal relationships and the Order at the same time and be successful, i think.

milowent wrote:Obviously a lot of parallels can be drawn between Buffy and Lg15 at this point. In Buffy, they made a lot of effort to have buffy still face a lot of the normal dilemmas that high schools and college kids face, including relationships. Those relationships may have been with a vampire and some secret military member, but a lot of attention was still given to those storylines. In that way, I think buffy was able to tap into an audience that enjoyed shows like 90210 and the O.C., and also an audience that liked the vampire-slayer storyline.

When Bree and Daniel left home, that was a huge shakeup for the series compared to Buffy. Bree was homeschooled, now she's not really schooled at all, except at al-Tachyon's training camp i guess. Bree had to totally transform from a girl who didn't know how to drive, and had never been to a party, to a homeless fugitive.

That is why "Buffy" was able to draw that same crowd, yes, but the plot to each season was also structured deliberately to work around the fact that she was in school (many of the incidents in the early seasons, including monsters, were allegories for high school). That's why there would be a Monster of the Week with foreshadowing throughout the season to a final battle with someone, and when that final battle came, it still adhered to the Monster of the Week formula to a large degree - the formula was never really shaken up until Season 5 (I know they left high school - and blew it up - at the end of Season 3, but they went straight into college after, so it was still much the same kind of formula at work).

As you said, when Bree and Daniel left home, that shook things up. The direction LG15 went in required a different approach be taken with characterization since Bree couldn't focus so much on normal life while running from a supposedly nigh-omniscient organization.

milowent wrote:Bree can't go home again. But there can be story arcs that deal with personal relationships and the Order at the same time and be successful, i think.

Isn't that what most videos since "The Unthinkable Happened" have done, though? We've seen at least as much focus (and I'd say more) given to character exploration in the time since then as we saw in the early videos.

Lurker wrote:

milowent wrote:Bree can't go home again. But there can be story arcs that deal with personal relationships and the Order at the same time and be successful, i think.

Isn't that what most videos since "The Unthinkable Happened" have done, though? We've seen at least as much focus (and I'd say more) given to character exploration in the time since then as we saw in the early videos.

I guess i have trouble identifying with the characters because there are now so few parallels to my own experience.