Kidnapping Jules: MISTAKE!!

TheeBerean · Post by **TheeBerean** » Mon May 07, 2007 10:52 pm

To The Creators,

Despite its ups and downs, LG15 has been enjoyable and I have never seen fit to post here. But this time, I can't be silent.

Having Bree & Co. Kidnap Jules was a MISTAKE. I mean this from an OOG perspective -- what were YOU--the writers--Thinking??

You have the main character go and kidnap a child! Yes, she may be a pawn of the Order but it has not yet been revealed. You didn't even try to have your characters try alternate means. You had Bree run up to her screaming her name and then they followed her home and tied her up.

As viewers we saw the characters monologuing to the camera while there is a young girl hog-tied in the background banging on the door and begging/screaming for help. What kind of message does this send? What kind of garbage of film-making is this??

I know there will sometimes be violence. Sometimes drastic measures are called for. Sometimes blood must be shed to preserve what is right and what is good.... this is NOT such an occasion. This is filth. Period. It has no place in our series.

What do you plan next? Jules will suddenly realize bree is right and is trying to help her??? Please don't be that pathetic of a story teller.

Creaters and Writers you have crossed a moral line.

~Dave (tb)

consideration · Post by **consideration** » Mon May 07, 2007 11:05 pm

This puts BD&J on the same level as those who kidnapped them.

Opladybug · Post by **Opladybug** » Mon May 07, 2007 11:14 pm

I am hoping thats the point.

Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Tue May 08, 2007 12:03 am

Let it play out, TheeBerean. The fact that the kids are resorting to the same kind of measures as the bad guys may be to make a particular point in that respect, or it might just be intended to emphasize how far Bree is willing to go (and how far the Order has driven them).

Say what one will, this says a lot about Bree's drive to save a complete stranger. And, actually, we can't really say that Bree didn't try alternate means. We saw her try talking to her before, and they may have tried that again here (but didn't film it).

Bree's probably thinking that time is of the essence here. Jules said she was only on restrictions from the computer until May 10. That may well mean that the ceremony would be on the 9th or the day after.

In any case, one can't deny that this is a more interesting take than Jules saying "Oh, Bree! Come save me!" Then she really would be a repeat of Bree. Here Bree's trying to save someone against their will.

If nothing else, it does raise an interesting moral question. If they felt she was going to die soon, should they have left her to that fate just to avoid kidnapping her? I mean, if she said "No, I don't believe you," should they have let it go at that? Or should Jules only be rescued if she already believed she was in danger? That seems weak. I have to applaud the Creators for making the decision to go ahead with this instead of "playing it safe."

They challenged normal expectations of what it means to be a good guy, but in a believable way that leaves no clear room of saying it was absolutely the right or wrong thing to do - and without making it something extremely callous in the process (like killing her to serve the greater good).

As for what kind of message this may be sending, it's probably reading a bit far to assume there was any kind of suggestion to the audience intended here. I'm really not thinking the Creators see kidnapping as a viable means of behavior in most situations, and, are, therefore, telling us all to try it.

Besides, I highly doubt anyone's going to be able to commit a kidnapping and get away with it legally by saying "LG15 told me to do it!" Lawmakers in Congress and many in the courts are still stupid, but not that stupid.

immortal1 · Post by **immortal1** » Tue May 08, 2007 12:09 am

This seems to be a popular topic. My thoughts based on some current conversatione elsewhere on the board.

1) She has not been confirmed as the new girl. She's only met the requirements on NikkiB's checklist.

2) Not all attempts to reach her had been exhausted such has using Taylor, who might be a familiar face, to approach her.

3) There was no urgency established that she had to be removed from the house immediately. Is the Ceremony next week?

4) What are they saving her from? We still don't know what the Ceremony is!!!

If we knew what the Ceremony was and why it was so important that no girl do it, she was confirmed as the next girl to do the Ceremony, all options to reach her had failed, and there was some urgency to act now established them it seems like an acceptable course of action. As is it seems like an ill advised very extreme overreaction.

Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Tue May 08, 2007 12:46 am

immortal1 wrote:1) She has not been confirmed as the new girl. She's only met the requirements on NikkiB's checklist.

Come on, Nikki's list was totally legit!

No, but seriously, I think there's a lot of hints to go on. We've got her learning some language that she wouldn't name but expected nobody to know, we've got her not being able to eat anything she wants, believing she has some special purpose, and quoting Crowley/receiving the Hymn of One's newsletter. Oh, and she fits the map on Lucy's computer from way back in the day (she moved from Zavalla, Texas last year - probably relatively late in the year since they still have unpacked boxes). There had also been a map for Bree's area on that computer.

I know it's not air tight, but there's enough hinting at it that I think it's fair to say they have the right girl. At the very least, she's definitely in the Hymn of One.

immortal1 wrote:2) Not all attempts to reach her had been exhausted such has using Taylor, who might be a familiar face, to approach her.

Okay, that might be a fair point. But, then, Bree had tried contacting her, so Jules should have known who she was too. If she'd been watching the vids, she may have been untrusting of Taylor anyway, and with time running out ... well, crazy things happen.

immortal1 wrote:3) There was no urgency established that she had to be removed from the house immediately. Is the Ceremony next week?

I think there was enough hint of the potential urgency that, for the characters (living in the fictional world where they can't examine all this as casually as we do), this was a reasonable course of action.

immortal1 wrote:4) What are they saving her from? We still don't know what the Ceremony is!!!

If we knew what the Ceremony was and why it was so important that no girl do it, she was confirmed as the next girl to do the Ceremony, all options to reach her had failed, and there was some urgency to act now established them it seems like an acceptable course of action. As is it seems like an ill advised very extreme overreaction.

I think even we have enough circumstantial evidence to believe the ceremony is fatal. Let me quote from another thread real quick:

I wrote:The reason I got the impression that it causes death ... is because Tachyon's parents apparently abandoned the commune where they lived right after the ceremony happened. They didn't even take the time to get their dog. Also, later, Tachy said something about how her sister always did what she was told, and then added something like "Look what that got her."

Now, this is keeping in mind that BD&J probably talked to Tachyon more than all of us put together ever did.

immortal1 · Post by **immortal1** » Tue May 08, 2007 1:09 am

Lurker wrote:I think even we have enough circumstantial evidence to believe the ceremony is fatal.

It's all circumstantial! But if what comes out of it is this conversation, I'll be happy:

BREE: It's of vital importance that you do NOT do the Ceremony.

JULES: Why not? What's so bad about it?

BREE: Umm...I'm not sure actually...I just know it's really really really really really really BAD!

JULES: And based on that you KIDNAPPED me?

JONAS: I can't do jail, I'm too pretty for jail.

Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Tue May 08, 2007 1:11 am

immortal1 wrote:
Lurker wrote:I think even we have enough circumstantial evidence to believe the ceremony is fatal.
It's all circumstantial! But if what comes out of it is this conversation, I'll be happy:

BREE: It's of vital importance that you do NOT do the Ceremony.

JULES: Why not? What's so bad about it?

BREE: Umm...I'm not sure actually...I just know it's really really really really really really BAD!

JULES: And based on that you KIDNAPPED me?

JONAS: I can't do jail, I'm too pretty for jail.

Oh, man, if there's a scene like that, I will fucking love them forever. That would be so hilarious.

I agree that there should be at least a little moment of acknowledgement that they didn't have all this certain beforehand, but I do think they've got the right girl (and I'm thinking they probably did the best thing for her; maybe; I hope).

corndog2000 · Post by **corndog2000** » Tue May 08, 2007 1:13 am

Lurker, I think you're kind of missing the point.

Let's just put aside for a moment the grasping-at-straws reveal of Jules as the new girl. As far as I can tell, that sloppiness was the story's fault, not BDJ's.

The idea that three smart kids could not come up with a better way to get Jules' attention than the two ways they tried is just ridiculous.

And sadly, I fear that TheeBerean is right. This will all be forgotten in a week, when the whole gang is gleefully running away to another motel room.

And if anyone mentions in the forum comments on the loss of coherence in the show, they'll quickly be swept under the "Concerns and Complaints" rug.

trainer101 · Post by **trainer101** » Tue May 08, 2007 1:38 am

How did Lurker and I end up on opposite sides of the table? What happened to the good old days when I was defending the series and he was picking the plot apart? Wow, times have changed...

Now, where the heck did those Illuminati go?

Lurker · Post by **Lurker** » Tue May 08, 2007 1:44 am

corndog2000 wrote:Lurker, I think you're kind of missing the point.

Let's just put aside for a moment the grasping-at-straws reveal of Jules as the new girl. As far as I can tell, that sloppiness was the story's fault, not BDJ's.

I don't think I'm missing the point. TheeBerean seemed to be questioning this mainly conceptually or morally, not in terms of plot mechanics or storytelling technique.

corndog2000 wrote:The idea that three smart kids could not come up with a better way to get Jules' attention than the two ways they tried is just ridiculous.

Maybe so. I really think that we're supposed to believe that they thought time was running out, though.

corndog2000 wrote:And if anyone mentions in the forum comments on the loss of coherence in the show, they'll quickly be swept under the "Concerns and Complaints" rug.

That's an unfair statement. There's been at least two such comments made in the thread for the video. Usually those kinds of things are only moved here when a thread is started with such a post, and in a section that doesn't quite fit the content as well as this section might.

trainer101 wrote:How did Lurker and I end up on opposite sides of the table? What happened to the good old days when I was defending the series and he was picking the plot apart? Wow, times have changed...

Haha, no kidding.

trainer101 wrote:Now, where the heck did those Illuminati go?

You mean you don't know?

Oh shit, we're in trouble.

Linc · Post by **Linc** » Tue May 08, 2007 2:11 am

Let us not forget that this is not something that everyone in the story thinks is a good thing.

Jonas is flipping out. He is the moral conscience of the group.

Esteed · Post by **Esteed** » Tue May 08, 2007 8:05 am

And yet, even knowing it was completely WRONG, Jonas didn't stop them. It's his car. And if push came to shove, he was a friggin' boxer. You're telling me he couldn't subdue Daniel and Bree when they were obviously doing something monumentally stupid?

Sami · Post by **Sami** » Tue May 08, 2007 8:17 am

how stupid is it that Daniel sat down and blogged in front of the tied up kid

Kasdeja · Post by **Kasdeja** » Tue May 08, 2007 8:49 am

On one hand I like the action again...even though I hate the new girls...but on the other, this just seemed a bit brash and out of nowhere. We used to get more info on thier daily routine, what they know, what they are thinking...we didn't get anything that made us think it was so vital they were thinking of kidnapping her. It just seems to be reaching.