Lonelygirl15

storyteller wrote:

maxomai wrote:Well, yeah. That would be immensely dangerous. You'd have too be mad to even attempt it.

The key word there, however, is FORCE. If Bree is a willing participant (and there's every indication that she was until recently), then the chief danger is the participnt's own ignorance. An experienced initiator in a secret tradition knows how to mitigate that risk.

So if, as everyone seems to want to believe, Bree were forced to be a part of the ceremony in some way, what role could she play that wouldn't be in any way dangerous? I don't think anyone is going to sacrifice Bree or force her to carry a demon seed, but the tension in the story obviously points to the ceremony in some way. Any thoughts on what her role could be if the assumptions are right?

Well, let's apply common sense: unless she were restrained, at gunpoint, unconscious, or otherwise helpless, she couldn't be forced to take part in the ceremony unwillingly. And if she is helpless, then there's not much she can do. A ritualist could have a proxy to speak for her (as in Roman Catholic baptisms), but her role would otherwise be severely limited.

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

storyteller wrote:

maxomai wrote:Well, yeah. That would be immensely dangerous. You'd have too be mad to even attempt it.

The key word there, however, is FORCE. If Bree is a willing participant (and there's every indication that she was until recently), then the chief danger is the participnt's own ignorance. An experienced initiator in a secret tradition knows how to mitigate that risk.

So if, as everyone seems to want to believe, Bree were forced to be a part of the ceremony in some way, what role could she play that wouldn't be in any way dangerous? I don't think anyone is going to sacrifice Bree or force her to carry a demon seed, but the tension in the story obviously points to the ceremony in some way. Any thoughts on what her role could be if the assumptions are right?

OK, so here's some new thoughts on this. The Deacons could force her to participate more elaborately in the ceremony if they hold her parents at gunpoint. This wouldn't require a physical restraint, and it would be just enough to get her to participate unwillingly with all of her faculties in place.

I've figured out a role that she could play if the Deacons forced her to perform and didn't have her drugged or physically restrained. Let's assume for a second that she's not carrying someone's demon seed or being used for a human sacrifice. There's a third use for someone who isn't a trained or willing magician, and this is a role that someone can play if they're not physically restrained but aren't exactly willing, either. I'm refering to a scryer.

Here's the basics of it: if you read through some of the Renaissance systems of magic, or study a bit about John Dee, you'll find that a lot of times, the magician doesn't want to bother trying to actually "see" whatever it is they're conjuring up. They will instead leave this to a scryer, someone whose job is to look into the astral world and see whether there is a spirit or demon present, and listen to what they are saying. This requires a minimal amount of training (knowing how to read Enochian, Greek and Hebrew letters; yoga; meditation) compared to doing the actual evokation. This leaves the magician to carry on the work of conducting the interview, keeping things lit, etc.

I personally prefer to use a scryer when I do evokation work. And, in theory, the best scryer you can get is an intelligent child who hasn't been exposed to much of the modern world. Ironically, someone who is less trained in ceremonial magic is better -- it gives them a cleaner BS filter. So I can see why the deacons would want Bree, very badly.

Based on the evidence right now, I'd say this is why the Deacons are insisting that she go through with this. No, it's not very Thelemic of them, but I think we've established that they're not Thelemites anyway.

Love is the Law, Love under Will.

This scryer theory is the most fitting one I've seen. Thanks!

Okay- this is completely what I was fishing for! I knew there had to be some other role that she could play.

So, could being a scryer be potentially dangerous to Bree? What I mean is: could the job be potentially dangerous? If not (and please no more "virgin sacrifice"!) then Bree just happens to be playing an inocuous role in a ceremony that the elders would not want anyone to know about or witness (Daniel). For whatever reason it's an important ceremony and they need a scryer (someone whose job is to look into the astral world and see whether there is a spirit or demon present, and listen to what they are saying) in order for the ceremony to happen.

It sounds like they're going to try to summon a spirit or demon (maybe the spirit of AC??). This would go well with the theory (somehwere on this board) that the ceremony might take place on the 100th anniversary (december 10th) of AC's "promotion" to Magister Templi in the OTO.

One website says this: "This single event gave Crowley the authority that he and Jones had earlier sought. Many individuals do not understand the full implications, however, in One Star in Sight it states that members of the Third Order "are each entitled to found Orders dependent on themselves on the lines of the R. C. and G. D. orders, to cover types of emancipation and illumination not contemplated by the original (or main) system. "

Perhaps this is a group that believes that it was specially created by AC (which explains why it doesn't quite fit into any thelemic definition) and they believe that AC will have somehting to share or give them on this date...

Well, there you go- I'm now officially obsessed.

storyteller wrote: So, could being a scryer be potentially dangerous to Bree? What I mean is: could the job be potentially dangerous? If not (and please no more "virgin sacrifice"!) then Bree just happens to be playing an inocuous role in a ceremony that the elders would not want anyone to know about or witness (Daniel). For whatever reason it's an important ceremony and they need a scryer (someone whose job is to look into the astral world and see whether there is a spirit or demon present, and listen to what they are saying) in order for the ceremony to happen.

Well, other than the usual physical dangers when dealing with open flame etc., there's the danger of being possessed, the danger of her being hounded by cacodemons, and the danger of having some kind of karmic backlash affect her life, in descending order of peril.

storyteller wrote: It sounds like they're going to try to summon a spirit or demon (maybe the spirit of AC??). This would go well with the theory (somehwere on this board) that the ceremony might take place on the 100th anniversary (december 10th) of AC's "promotion" to Magister Templi in the OTO.

One website says this: "This single event gave Crowley the authority that he and Jones had earlier sought. Many individuals do not understand the full implications, however, in One Star in Sight it states that members of the Third Order "are each entitled to found Orders dependent on themselves on the lines of the R. C. and G. D. orders, to cover types of emancipation and illumination not contemplated by the original (or main) system. "

Perhaps this is a group that believes that it was specially created by AC (which explains why it doesn't quite fit into any thelemic definition) and they believe that AC will have somehting to share or give them on this date...

Well, there you go- I'm now officially obsessed.

AC founded what AC founded, so I doubt he would try to establish anything new on their behest. The Law is The Law.

There's all sorts of reasons why one might want to perform a summoning ritual. The most basic reason is to find one's spiritual double, but you wouldn't necessarily need a specially prepared child for the task. One that comes to mind, that might require that level of preparation and dedication, is that someone might fancy themselves the new MT and want to elevate themselves to the rank of Magister Templi, to speak forth a new Law and to establish a new Order. That's actually not a bad goal for any magician.

Maxomai-
Ah- so you've spotted my ignorance!
I really appreciate that you have taken the time to explain these things to me. It seems like I could do all the research I wanted to, and stil not understand half of what I read.

Thanks! This has given me a lot to think about.