(I've just realized how long this post is and how unnecessary some of it might be, at least where the overall objective of this thread is concerned. If you'd like to skip to what are probably the only vital parts, then just go down until you see the bolded "[____]")
emerrs11 wrote:Okay so I was going to post this comment yelling Owen out of his shell but instead I will post this. Please do not tell people the negative side of what they are doing but the postive side.
In a world like that, nothing ever improves. Have you ever heard Hans Christian Andersen's story
The Emperor's New Clothes or the phrase "the elephant in the room"? When there's something obviously wrong, you don't walk around it for the sake of "being polite," especially if it's disingenuous (being polite solely for the sake of doing so). To me that's just phony and not in any way admirable.
If anything, it's harmful. It prevents others who might share the same feelings but are concerned about admitting it from feeling like they can admit it, and it prevents whoever most needs to hear the truth from learning it and doing something to improve the situation.
Even if being excessively polite was a valid concern here, the Creators have said they want all kinds of criticism, not just the kind where someone gushes about what a great job they're doing. Miles has had a pretty long discussion with several of us in the past (including DreamerM) and expressed a lot of appreciation for the input we offered for improving the series.
I dare say the Creators even took some of our suggestions and used them for a while (I say "for a while" because disclosure of loose plot threads came to a halt a while ago).
emerrs11 wrote:Instead of saying "What LG 15 is still doing wrong" you could write to the creators saying " I like your plot. It is very interesting. However in my opinion these things could be changed. (Then politely ask them howcome the Gemma plot is taking so long etc.)"
DreamerM has made it known to the Creators on more than one occasion that he likes LG15 and that he appreciates what they and the rest of the production crew have done (especially when they pull off something fantastic), as have I. I include myself in this point because I've been one of the series' harshest critics from the beginning, as well as one of its most devoted fans. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive.
emerrs11 wrote:And most importantly if you don't like this plot/game/whatever go away. Nobody told you you had to be here.
Okay?
Pointing out that something has a flaw does not mean you hate it. It doesn't mean you're just trying to piss on everyone else's parade. It means you're making an observation about reality. Sometimes that doesn't need to be done, but with the production of something like LG15, it does need to.
If you love someone a great deal but they're an alcoholic who's letting their addiction destroy their life (or at least prevent it from becoming better), at a certain point you need to say "Hey, I love you, but there's no dancing around it anymore. You've got a problem."
Now, with all that said, I'd like to address some of the things DreamerM had to say in his opening post:
DreamerM wrote:First off, Bree's father's death was a sloppy job. The quick-camera jostling, the shot, the screaming, the get-away, the moody tribute following it, everything was so perfectly dramatic it was cliche. Sorry, but it was.
I agree that it was cliche, but sometimes things have to be. I'm not going to say that originality is dead, but I am saying that sometimes something just works better when it's doing something in a cliche manner. That doesn't mean this scene couldn't have been pulled off better, but I really don't feel that it was of poor quality.
At least not the actual death video, "The Unthinkable Happened." I thought that was well done. From the perspective of plot, the video had some nice interaction between Jonas and Daniel, it presumably allowed Bree to learn a lot of stuff (which she has irritatingly kept to herself... as always), and it presented a big development that should have told everyone who was still alive that they were really in a lousy situation and needed to start doing something about it (which they irritatingly haven't).
And, honestly, I thought the dialogue and camera work in it was good. I was as convinced that they'd made an effort with writing that dialogue well as if it had been any other video. It didn't feel like it was just there to pass the time up to the gunshot. At least not to me.
Now, the following video, "Bree's Dad Is Dead"
was of poor quality. It was the painful kind of cliche, but mainly because it was extremely unbelievable. The very idea that one of them would have actually been editing a video like that (after they had apparently been passing the camera back and forth amongst themselves to film footage for it when they were supposed to be shocked and/or depressed) was completely unconvincing.
The camera work in it was great, the music was fitting, and the editing job was top notch. No doubt. I think they did a wonderful job with that. But it didn't fit the context of this series. Since they've insisted on maintaing the vlogger presentation, something like that just doesn't work. Had it been a standard film in which the characters had no knowledge of being watched it would have been terrific.
You know, I just realized that I'm not really offering anything helpful to this, and that much of what I said above is probably criticism that would have been better suited for the actual threads for those videos instead of as a response to what DreamerM had said. Oh well.
DreamerM wrote:Finally we find out what the injections were. It only took, what....six months or so from the introduction of them as a plot point? Plus supposedly the symptoms Bree exibited at the time don't match the symptoms supposedly induced by the substance: apparently it's supposed to give you more energy but she kept acting sluggish. Makes me wonder if they introduced it without knowing themselves what it was.
This criticism I can agree with. It was three months and twelve days from the introduction of gauze on her arm before we learned what Bree was getting injected with, and even then it was without any apparent relevance (even to the characters; they haven't talked about it since or investigated for themselves what it might mean). At the time it seemed like we were actually getting answers, but it's become apparent since then that it was just product placement for Epogen.
Answers, by the way, is something that I want to touch on, just as robtomorrow has. Just as he's said, there are tons of old plot threads still hanging (and apparently forgotten) when new ones get introduced. Despite Killthesmiley's admirable effort, almost none of them have answers.
The only things we do have answers to are what Bree was being injected with, what the deal with Cassie is, and what happened to Gemma. And even then the plot element of Cassie wasn't wrapped up without introducing a contradiction (previously we'd been told that Cassie was freaked out by Bree's religion and stopped calling; then we were told that Cassie got Bree in trouble and Bree stopped talking to her; I suppose they may not be mutually exclusive, but the way they were presented sure looked that way).
I also have to address something else Killthesmiley suggested, which EliCash added to with a quote from Michelangelo Antonioni. We're not questioning things like "Why are they Jewish?" or asking things that are in any way unreasonable. We're asking for answers to things the creators of this series deliberately inserted to fuel speculation and suggest had meaning. As time goes on, we get less and less reason to believe we need to be speculating, as the plot point will likely be unrealistically brushed aside and never mentioned again. Heck, I haven't posted on the forum for more than a month, and I really didn't miss anything. I still watched the videos, but I didn't post in the forum, and, yet, within a couple of hours I was able to get myself up to date on everything (which wasn't much; aside from the revelation about Nikki Bower being Alli Danziger, most of what I missed was flame wars and discussion about flame wars).
Someone telling a story (which directors are doing) shouldn't throw something in without understanding for themselves why they are including it. That suggests poor planning and a poor sense of what they're doing. I'm not saying that everything down to the last tread on a tire needs to be explained. I'm talking about the obvious stuff that stands out, and was clearly given a prominent place in presentation, often even pointed out by the characters themselves (like Crowlely, Thelema, Cassie, Epogen, the break-in at the motel, ribozymes, etc.). A storyteller needs to be able to account for everything they deliberately included, and there should be more to it than "It's there to take up space." That's one of the major indicators of the divide between talent/skill and ineptitude.
And while we are greedy and want the answers, I think it's not solely for ourselves that we fear some of the answers don't exist. As I've said before, I want to see this production succeed. I want to see it become something great and memorable. I'd like to see it do something to change the face of future media. I appreciate the ambitions of the people who conceived of it, I find some of the things they've written/filmed to be brilliant, I love the actors, and I'm attached to the production itself, so I would personally like it to succeed for that reason if no other.
If, however, plot elements are revealed to have been inserted at random with no intention at the time for what they meant and little concern for resolving them, or if they still lie loose when all is said and done, I really doubt LG15 would be remembered for the things it did well. It would be remembered for what it failed to do. The actors would be remembered for what they did well, sure, and they'd go on to the bigger and better things that they deserve to be part of, but this particular production would be remembered with such phrases as "The surprise disappointment of the decade."
That's why I've stressed in the past just how important it is to have an ending in mind from the moment you begin. I'm not convinced that there was one in mind since we've heard conflicting reports over how long LG15 was intended to last (some people said six months and others said a year). I guess only the people behind the production or close to it know for sure, but I think we've seen enough evidence to suggest that they didn't have this thing planned out from the beginning:
~Daniel's romantic feelings for Bree being a product of fan suggestion
~CiW -- which was scrapped --
apparently being from those close to the Creators after all
~Gemma's character being killed off because her actor no longer had time for the series (that she could so easily be killed off on its own says there was no further intended use for -- nor significance to -- Gemma; truthfully, she was killed off without ever actually having any kind of impact on events; yeah, she brought up the terms "Watcher" and "Order," but the first hasn't really gone anywhere and the second... well, some fans had
already started referring to the Order as "the Order"; what's more, had she been an intended part of things all along, one would think they might have enlisted an actor who wouldn't need to bail out)
DreamerM wrote:I will say one thing though, halleluja and thank goodness: Bree has finally stopped being likeable.
Was she ever?
DreamerM wrote:She's rejected her toys, she's locked herself in the bathroom, she's shapish and withdrawn, she's irritable and short-tempered. She's actually reacting to something for once, and all I can say is it's about time.
I wholeheartedly agree that it's great that she finally started showing that she has a personality. I remember that being one of our greatest criticisms in your original thread.
It's a shame, though -- and, no, this isn't a criticism of the Creators, but of the character -- that it turned out her personality is that of a total bitch. I can't believe how she's treated Daniel lately, and I
especially can't believe that she still hasn't told him and Jonas anything she knows. She's been a greater help to the Order than to the people who have constantly (and still continue to) put their lives in jeopardy for her sake.
DreamerM wrote:"Love it or leave it." eh emmers? This is not a religion. I am not obligated to have faith. This is not a country. I cannot be shipped to quantanamo for disagreeing with my nation's forgien policy....
It's almost adorable how naive that is.
[____]
I have to apologize to everyone for this long and meandering post. I really didn't give it any focus and just sort of went where my thoughts were taking me at the time. It probably came off looking more negative than intended at times as a result.
There's certainly some problems with the series right now, but there's been some great aspects too. The dialogue remains nice, Jonas and Daniel's interaction has been great (I've actually come to trust Jonas and like him; Daniel's still my favorite by far, but Jonas is second), the acting is superb and continues to improve, the camerawork is almost always on target, and videos are well edited.
The problems mainly are this:
~Things continue going unanswered, even when new questions are added to the stack. Worse than that , things continue going unanswered even when it's unrealistic that they would, such as with Bree hiding everything. After a certain point, most of us would have kicked her door in and forced what she knows out of her, friend or no (the fact that she's been such an evil a*****e lately would probably make this easier even as her friend)
~Generally unrealistic occurrences, like everyone pretending that the Order is gone or non-threatening, despite them seeing Bree's dad blown away right in front of them. Have they even tried to go buy a gun to defend themselves next time? Have they started doing something to try drawing the Order out and settle this? No. Nothing. Instead Bree talks about getting a
job (??!!), Jonas goes to watch a movie, and Daniel goes out looking for a girl.
There's also the case like in "Cowboy," where Jonas and Bree follow Cowboy instead of look around his place when he leaves. Did they seriously not see "Following The Helper"? Do they not know how this stuff is done, despite Daniel successfully infiltrating three places before now? Or, hell, they could have tried
asking him where Daniel is. Oh, and then they go back home after doing nothing more than check out the back of Cowboy's van. What the heck is that?
Also, how about OpAphid's apparent inability to realize that the car Bree and her dad were driving (which OpAphid has now taken) would provide them with all the information they'd need to figure out where Jonas' place is? They supposedly have judges, police officials, and government authorities as resources, yet they have to start triangulating areas, looking up lists of bowling alleys, and all that crap when they have one of his damn cars?
~Pacing. Good God, the pacing. I hate to say it, but it's become worse in the time since the last big discussion in DreamerM's previous thread. I think this is largely related to the issue of how unrealistic everyone's been acting (this includes Bree, Daniel, Jonas,
and OpAphid, but mainly the first three)
) I guess if I had to respond to a post like that, I would probably get defensive, even if I agreed with some or even many of your points.
Amazing! Way to make me look lazy in my own thread! I bow before the superior analyst.